New Shelby American GT350

[robvas]

The debate on the FPC vs CPC engine design is also a bit odd. FPC engines produce more power. Period. Ferrari uses them, BMW put a FPC version of the E92 M3 V8 into the BMW E92 M3 race cars, and Chev put one in the C8 Z06. The effect on sound is nice, but the power is what it's all about. Even now, the latest 500HP Coyote is still not producing the same HP per liter as the 526HP Voodoo, although after ten years of refinement, it's (finally) getting close.

The crank isn't doing anything special for power. Predator 5.2 doesn't use it. And Ford has had a 580hp crate based on the 5.2....again using a regular crank. GTD, Dark Horse R, GT3 race car....don't use them either

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A52XS

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[Jmeo]

Jmeo bought a 500 and then sent it to SA to get widebodied and other stuff, completely different than someone buying these SA products for crazy money at a dealership

I know that. I was referring to his interactions with SA. I‘d guess that his opinions of SA and their products would differ from a lot of the those written in this thread.

My stance is to just not get involved. People’s minds are made up already. Nothing I say about my positive experience is going to change thIngs.

 

[Nfs1000f]

Exactly. Which is why I do not understand the contempt for the SA GT350. It’s a Mustang. It’s a nice car even if is a wee bit overpriced . But that’s for the buyer to decide. I say the more the merrier. If this doesn’t light your fire maybe the next Roush, RTR, or Steeda will be. At least we still have a Shelby.

Price

 

[Paddles]

My stance is to just not get involved. People’s minds are made up already. Nothing I say about my positive experience is going to change thIngs.

 

[Angrey]

Well, no, that's not how the S550 GT350 was built. Just to explain how different that car was from a regular Mustang GT, here's an article from back in 2015 explaining the differences:

https://www.hotrod.com/reviews/18-t...out-the-2015-shelby-mustang-gt350-and-gt350r/

In terms of track performance, the Mach 1 that's held up as the "just like a GT350" is about 26 seconds slower around the Nürburgring at 7:58 vs 7:32 for the GT350R. Nobody has published a lap time for the Dark Horse yet, as far as I can tell. It'll probably be slower than the GT350R and faster than the Mach 1. As for the GTD, it's posted a 6:58 lap, a full minute faster than the Mach 1 and 34 seconds ahead of the GT350R.

The debate on the FPC vs CPC engine design is also a bit odd. FPC engines produce more power. Period. Ferrari uses them, BMW put a FPC version of the E92 M3 V8 into the BMW E92 M3 race cars, and Chev put one in the C8 Z06. The effect on sound is nice, but the power is what it's all about. Even now, the latest 500HP Coyote is still not producing the same HP per liter as the 526HP Voodoo, although after ten years of refinement, its (finally) getting close.

The voodoo isn't a true FPC. That's the problem. It has a basterdized firing order. This has been covered in excruciating pain on other threads. There's a reason the GM FPC sounds like a Ferrari and the voodoo sounds like, well, a voodoo.

EDIT:

And as for the second part, no one has provisioned the coyote equally. The magic isn't the FPC. The magic in the voodoo is the heads, intake, TB, and headers (i.e. the lungs).

You put together the same 5.2 liter motor at 12:1 compression with the same supporting components and the coyote will make pretty close to the same power. You could argue that the additional scavenging from the quasi UDUD of the voodoo might give it a very SLIGHT advantage.

But the 8250 rev has absolutely nothing to do with the FPC in the voodoo. It has the same heavy counterweights as the CPC. The increased rev limit is due to the heads and rotating components. Which has been replicated and then some on CPC coyotes for awhile now.

I too was disappointed to find out that Ford basically gave us motor with the drawbacks of both motors. The heavy counterweights of the CPC and the secondary imbalance of an FPC.

 

[Oakley]

Price

buying that instead of a new porsche 911 is CRAZY.

 

[S550VIN54]

Don't all of our cars regardless of model come down the same assembly line? From Ecoboost to GT500?

Indeed....and the term test mule comes to mind as well that gives us the next true and tested carry over stang.

 

[Rev Happy]

The main thing for me is that I rather have Ford Performance make one. They can do a lot more with it. I love my R, it has all the emotion but I'm also open to them making another one with improvements. Ford needs to step up imho. They should be mirroring the Z06 and the ZR1 motors. Proper FPC V8s with one being N/A and one being turbo. What is the next halo besides the limited and expensive GTD? Some people have mentioned a Boss variant but I don't think that would move the needle that much. At least with the 350 and 500 name, Ford Performance has to go all out.

 

[MNGT350]

The voodoo isn't a true FPC. That's the problem. It has a basterdized firing order. This has been covered in excruciating pain on other threads. There's a reason the GM FPC sounds like a Ferrari and the voodoo sounds like, well, a voodoo.

EDIT:

And as for the second part, no one has provisioned the coyote equally. The magic isn't the FPC. The magic in the voodoo is the heads, intake, TB, and headers (i.e. the lungs).

You put together the same 5.2 liter motor at 12:1 compression with the same supporting components and the coyote will make pretty close to the same power. You could argue that the additional scavenging from the quasi UDUD of the voodoo might give it a very SLIGHT advantage.

But the 8250 rev has absolutely nothing to do with the FPC in the voodoo. It has the same heavy counterweights as the CPC. The increased rev limit is due to the heads and rotating components. Which has been replicated and then some on CPC coyotes for awhile now.

I too was disappointed to find out that Ford basically gave us motor with the drawbacks of both motors. The heavy counterweights of the CPC and the secondary imbalance of an FPC.

Voodoo crank is approx 5 pounds lighter than predator/coyote. How much does the weight difference contribute to RPM targets and power increases? Beyond my paygrade. But the crankshaft is lighter, and that is supposed to matter.

could ford make a lighter cpc option? i don't know. Maybe the only reason they could shave off 5 pounds was the FPC design. Maybe not. But I'm holding on to the idea that there is an RPM and power benefit to the FPC design, and weight savings seems to be contributing .

 

[Angrey]

Voodoo crank is approx 5 pounds lighter than predator/coyote. How much does the weight difference contribute to RPM targets and power increases? Beyond my paygrade. But the crankshaft is lighter, and that is supposed to matter.

could ford make a lighter cpc option? i don't know. Maybe the only reason they could shave off 5 pounds was the FPC design. Maybe not. But I'm holding on to the idea that there is an RPM and power benefit to the FPC design, and weight savings seems to be contributing .

In any case, it has the typical heavy counterweights of a CPC. Look at every other FPC crank, they don't have them because it's inherently balanced (primary) but features a secondary imbalance, which leads to limits on engine size and applications for "race only" because your typical passenger vehicle owner doesn't want to rattle their fillings out.

The voodoo firing order isn't inherently balanced.

And like we all observe when building any modern engine, the rev limit has more to do with valve springs and valve float than the crank. You can absolutely rev a CPC coyote motor to 8250 as many have done on OE heads with upgraded valves and springs.

My point is, the voodoo is a "true" FPC. And again, we've seen time and again that once you provision the coyote with the same lungs, it produces outputs consistent with the 5.2 voodoo.

The voodoo heads flow about 318 cfm as they come from Ford. A set of oversized valves on a coyote (1 mm larger) and port polish ends up right around the same flow. On those cars we observe the BMEP and power density we see on the voodoo. The magic in the voodoo has little or nothing to do with the crank, it's the lungs.

 

[Deadly0ne]

In any case, it has the typical heavy counterweights of a CPC. Look at every other FPC crank, they don't have them because it's inherently balanced (primary) but features a secondary imbalance, which leads to limits on engine size and applications for "race only" because your typical passenger vehicle owner doesn't want to rattle their fillings out.

The voodoo firing order isn't inherently balanced.

And like we all observe when building any modern engine, the rev limit has more to do with valve springs and valve float than the crank. You can absolutely rev a CPC coyote motor to 8250 as many have done on OE heads with upgraded valves and springs.

My point is, the voodoo is a "true" FPC. And again, we've seen time and again that once you provision the coyote with the same lungs, it produces outputs consistent with the 5.2 voodoo.

The voodoo heads flow about 318 cfm as they come from Ford. A set of oversized valves on a coyote (1 mm larger) and port polish ends up right around the same flow. On those cars we observe the BMEP and power density we see on the voodoo. The magic in the voodoo has little or nothing to do with the crank, it's the lungs.

I'm just appreciating all the info I'm learning about the voodoo. Thanks!

 

[MNGT350]

In any case, it has the typical heavy counterweights of a CPC. Look at every other FPC crank, they don't have them because it's inherently balanced (primary) but features a secondary imbalance, which leads to limits on engine size and applications for "race only" because your typical passenger vehicle owner doesn't want to rattle their fillings out.

The voodoo firing order isn't inherently balanced.

And like we all observe when building any modern engine, the rev limit has more to do with valve springs and valve float than the crank. You can absolutely rev a CPC coyote motor to 8250 as many have done on OE heads with upgraded valves and springs.

My point is, the voodoo is a "true" FPC. And again, we've seen time and again that once you provision the coyote with the same lungs, it produces outputs consistent with the 5.2 voodoo.

The voodoo heads flow about 318 cfm as they come from Ford. A set of oversized valves on a coyote (1 mm larger) and port polish ends up right around the same flow. On those cars we observe the BMEP and power density we see on the voodoo. The magic in the voodoo has little or nothing to do with the crank, it's the lungs.

you mentioned earlier maybe the UDUD configuration adds some power. Combine that with the lighter crank, maybe a modest benefit results overall vs the CPC?

either way, your larger point is a good one, and it's been interesting peeling back the marketing around the FPC and the Voodoo.

 

[Angrey]

you mentioned earlier maybe the UDUD configuration adds some power. Combine that with the lighter crank, maybe a modest benefit results overall vs the CPC?

either way, your larger point is a good one, and it's been interesting peeling back the marketing around the FPC and the Voodoo.

Perhaps, but with exhaust scavenging on the same size header primary and catless back system, we're talking a couple of hp at most. It would be a similar comparison to a set of 1-7/8" long tube primaries vs equal length long tubes. Does it yield some improvements? Probably, but it's tiny.

Again, the real improvement of the voodoo over the coyote was A) a tad bit more displacement, 316 cubes vs. 307 and B) Better flowing heads, which have larger ports, larger valves and better rotating components).

We've seen max N/A coyote 5.0 cars right in the same area as max voodoo numbers. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore the sound of my voodoo. But if we're being honest, the vast majority of people who build a highly performing Ford modular engine choose CPC, it's tried and true and doesn't come with the vibration issues of the voodoo.

Would be interesting to see a custom true FPC crank and set of cams and control unit to see what the 5.2 could REALLY do with voodoo trimmings in a true FPC firing order. Of course, it would change the tone and nature of the exhaust.

 

[DopamineQuest]

Voodoo crank is approx 5 pounds lighter than predator/coyote. How much does the weight difference contribute to RPM targets and power increases? Beyond my paygrade. But the crankshaft is lighter, and that is supposed to matter.

could ford make a lighter cpc option? i don't know. Maybe the only reason they could shave off 5 pounds was the FPC design. Maybe not. But I'm holding on to the idea that there is an RPM and power benefit to the FPC design, and weight savings seems to be contributing .

Dunno how much 5 lbs off a crank does, but tuned s550 GT500 owners have been pushing 8500 RPM for 4 years now.

 

[Mjc1241]

The 2015-2020 GT350 with the Aluminator motor stock would have been sweet! I love my car for everything that it is, not just the Voodoo, but the concern with reliability and longevity possibly would have been lessened with the Aluminator.

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