Had to Jump Start...Bat?? Let's Troubleshoot

[Egparson202]

I’ll buy that.

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[galaxy]

I've often wondered if battery tenders are double edged swords for the same reason. Sure, they can keep a battery alive for much longer, but do they artifically keep it alive? IDK. Speculating. My stock battery that started this thread was five years old next month and lived on a tender. Would the impending failure been more identifiable or predictable if it didn't live that life? But then would it had ever made it five years without? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[460Fred]

I've often wondered if battery tenders are double edged swords for the same reason. Sure, they can keep a battery alive for much longer, but do they artifically keep it alive? IDK. Speculating. My stock battery that started this thread was five years old next month and lived on a tender. Would the impending failure been more identifiable or predictable if it didn't live that life? But then would it had ever made it five years without? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I’ve read many a thread here pertaining to our cars and batteries. My conclusion is…..
Regular batteries should be replaced every three years, cheap insurance.
When they go, there doesn’t seem to be much or any warning. That first little hesitation on start up warrants replacement.
You may get more life if you keep it on a charger when not driving but that depends on how much you drive/don’t drive.
In my case, it took a couple days to get in the Interstate Battery that our cars require…think ahead. BTW, Costco doesn’t carry and won’t order the correct Interstate battery.

 

[galaxy]

My conclusion is…..
Regular batteries should be replaced every three years, cheap insurance.

Oohhh, don’t know that I agree with that one. In fact, I know I don’t. The battery in my truck is at least 15 years old. Yes, 15. And even when looking at the life of the battery in other cars I’ve owned, that would most certainly not be cheap insurance; that’s a losing proposition no matter how you slice it.

 

[Egparson202]

Oohhh, don’t know that I agree with that one. In fact, I know I don’t. The battery in my truck is at least 15 years old. Yes, 15. And even when looking at the life of the battery in other cars I’ve owned, that would most certainly not be cheap insurance; that’s a losing proposition no matter how you slice it.

I took that to be late-model, Mustang-specific advice. And in the case of the slightly undersized GT350 batteries, I think it’s pretty good.

 

[lunatect]

15 years in a newer Mustang is impossible.

 

[jmn444]

yeah these small oem batteries are not on par with what comes in most vehicles IMO

 

[03reptile]

Okay folks, I've did some research on our OEM batteries. About a month ago, my 2019 GT350 with 22K on the clock failed to start. The battery was DOA and needed to be replaced, per my SVT Ford technician. It was about 3.5 years old. I was curious as to why this OEM battery failed in such a short time. My three previous GT500's never had this problem and their batteries lasted much longer.
Here's what I found out:
Ford intentionally installed a smaller battery in the GT350, part #BXF 99RT. It weighs 27 lbs. and has 390 cold cranking amps. They did so to reduce the weight in the nose of the GT350. Ford Parts also offers two other alternative batteries that are the same size as the OEM BXF 99RT. The first alternative choice is a BXT-99RT4-A. It is just a little heavier than the original battery (couple of lbs.) and has 470 CCA's. The 2nd alternative is BXT 96R-590. It weighs 32 lbs. and has 590 CCA's. I chose to install the last one as it was the same price as the OEM, the same size, only weighed 5 more extra lbs., and had 200 additional CCA's!! It was installed by the dealership, and I think it will last longer than the OEM battery.
So, I would suggest that those of you who aren't worried about 5 extra pounds under the hood choose the 590 battery and get a bit more longevity. Just the result of my research. Hope that clarifies some of the concerns.

 

[jmn444]

yeah the 96R is the oem normal gt battery, def is the better choice IMO.

 

[Vlad Soare]

I've often wondered if battery tenders are double edged swords for the same reason. Sure, they can keep a battery alive for much longer, but do they artifically keep it alive? IDK. Speculating. My stock battery that started this thread was five years old next month and lived on a tender. Would the impending failure been more identifiable or predictable if it didn't live that life? But then would it had ever made it five years without? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I believe that without a tender, and without the BMS, it wouldn't have lived that long.

Besides my theory about the BMS possibly concealing any signs of impeding death (which is just that, a theory, I'm not sure it's correct), there's one other problem. Most of today's OEM batteries are undersized. Or maybe not necessarily undersized, but exactly sized for the job, not even one tiny bit more. This makes the job of the battery a binary process - it either starts the engine normally (if it's in perfect shape), or it doesn't even crank it at all (if it isn't). This might also contribute to the way modern batteries seem to fail so suddenly. They lack that intermediate state, when they struggle a bit, then a bit more, but the engine still starts eventually after several slow cranks, until finally the time comes when they cannot crank the engine fast enough for it to start - by which time you'd probably get the message and put a new battery on your shopping list. This gradual decline in starting power cannot happen if the battery, to begin with, has just enough capacity to start the engine once.

But the trouble with modern cars (or at least with modern Fords) is that, unlike in the olden days, simply installing a bigger battery won't necessarily improve things. The BMS bases its strategy on the exact specifications of the stock battery. A larger one may not be charged properly. Ensuring that it will be charged properly requires changes to the BCM configuration, and unfortunately this particular area of the BCM configuration happens to be very tricky and risky to change.

Personally, I would continue to use the best practices for keeping the battery in good shape for as long as it is possible, but would also test it regularly after three years or so. And then I would pick a new battery that has the same specifications as the original. If I get five years out of each one, I'll be happy.

 

[Egparson202]

I believe that without a tender, and without the BMS, it wouldn't have lived that long.

Besides my theory about the BMS possibly concealing any signs of impeding death (which is just that, a theory, I'm not sure it's correct), there's one other problem. Most of today's OEM batteries are undersized. Or maybe not necessarily undersized, but exactly sized for the job, not even one tiny bit more. This makes the job of the battery a binary process - it either starts the engine normally (if it's in perfect shape), or it doesn't even crank it at all (if it isn't). This might also contribute to the way modern batteries seem to fail so suddenly. They lack that intermediate state, when they struggle a bit, then a bit more, but the engine still starts eventually after several slow cranks, until finally the time comes when they cannot crank the engine fast enough for it to start - by which time you'd probably get the message and put a new battery on your shopping list. This gradual decline in starting power cannot happen if the battery, to begin with, has just enough capacity to start the engine once.

But the trouble with modern cars (or at least with modern Fords) is that, unlike in the olden days, simply installing a bigger battery won't necessarily improve things. The BMS bases its strategy on the exact specifications of the stock battery. A larger one may not be charged properly. Ensuring that it will be charged properly requires changes to the BCM configuration, and unfortunately this particular area of the BCM configuration happens to be very tricky and risky to change.

Personally, I would continue to use the best practices for keeping the battery in good shape for as long as it is possible, but would also test it regularly after three years or so. And then I would pick a new battery that has the same specifications as the original. If I get five years out of each one, I'll be happy.

I think you’re mostly right on this. Especially the right sizing of the battery. Manufacturers are designing and building for the original purchaser. Im not saying the car won’t last, just that the experience of the new car owner is being prioritized ahead of long term ownership and/or the secondary market.

 

[WD Pro]

Lead costs money and it's heavy.

Design for price ? Design for cranking ? Design for robustness ? Design for long life ?

Where do you think Ford put their priorities ?

They want the minimum cost for something that meets their required standard.

Assuming the ratio of active materials and manufacturing techniques is optimised, taking cost out of the product essentially boils down to removing lead and compromising life.

Don't blame the battery manufacturers - every single one of them will know what it takes to make a great product and they most likely have one already available within their range - but in most cases it takes an enthusiast (not an OE) to pay for it ...

WD

 

[Egparson202]

Lead costs money and it's heavy.

Design for price ? Design for cranking ? Design for robustness ? Design for long life ?

Where do you think Ford put their priorities ?

They want the minimum cost for something that meets their required standard.

Assuming the ratio of active materials and manufacturing techniques is optimised, taking cost out of the product essentially boils down to removing lead and compromising life.

Don't blame the battery manufacturers - every single one of them will know what it takes to make a great product and they most likely have one already available within their range - but in most cases it takes an enthusiast (not an OE) to pay for it ...

WD

Well stated.

 

[jmn444]

Lead costs money and it's heavy.

Design for price ? Design for cranking ? Design for robustness ? Design for long life ?

Where do you think Ford put their priorities ?

They want the minimum cost for something that meets their required standard.

Assuming the ratio of active materials and manufacturing techniques is optimised, taking cost out of the product essentially boils down to removing lead and compromising life.

Don't blame the battery manufacturers - every single one of them will know what it takes to make a great product and they most likely have one already available within their range - but in most cases it takes an enthusiast (not an OE) to pay for it ...

WD

Wellllll... then explain why the normal GT has a more robust battery? It costs less (last i checked) and even fits right into the 350 battery box lol... I really think they were simply shooting for weight reduction on this one.

 

[WD Pro]

I really think they were simply shooting for weight reduction on this one.

If that's true, then I think you have your answer

Very generically, weight comes from lead and lead gives performance.

Again, very generically, a high performance or long lasting traditional lead acid battery will also have a hefty weight, with a few exceptions like swapping the lead in the plates (conductors) to copper etc.

Oh crap, that's expensive ...

OK lets reduce the lead in the conductors. Oh crap, now we've compromised performance and life ...

OK lets take a little active material. Damn, there goes some of my performance and life again ...

Something has to give somewhere

WD

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