Brembo brake upgrade - Master Cylinder.

[2015Etrac]

I know this topic has been talked about multiple times, however, it seemed like the consensus was that the base master cylinder could be kept and worked fine? According to a new video by Vorshlag that's not the case. They said after upgrading from the base 4 piston brakes to the 6 piston Brembos, the car was terrible and would not stop right on the track. Can anyone who has done the upgrade and tracked the car confirm this? I was hoping I could just swap out the calipers and rotors.

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[Houston Kid]

I’ve done the swap. The brakes are awesome. I have not tracked it but I drive the piss out of it and use the brakes. It’s my weekend drive hard and fast everywhere car. I beat on it every time I drive it. Braking late and hard. I have zero concerns. Pic here.

Don’t ever buy one of my used cars if I’ve had it any length of time. I’m hard on them. Maintenance is 100% kept up to date but rode hard and put up wet comes to mind.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101674&page=2

 

[2015Etrac]

I’ve done the swap. The brakes are awesome. I have not tracked it but I drive the piss out of it and use the brakes. It’s my weekend drive hard and fast everywhere car. I beat on it every time I drive it. Braking late and hard. I have zero concerns. Pic here.

Don’t ever buy one of my used cars if I’ve had it any length of time. I’m hard on them. Maintenance is 100% kept up to date but rode hard and put up wet comes to mind.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101674&page=2

Haha. Good to know since I really don't feel like having to buy and swap all those additional parts. The brakes look great on your car. I plan to go with the gloss black version also. It seems like they must have had another issue other than the master cylinder/booster. In the video the guy said he was flooring the brakes and the car wasn't wanting to stop coming into the turns. I believe the explanation was the PP brakes have 9% more surface area which is "significant hydraulically" and "there's no way the base master cylinder will work".

 

[ForYourOwnGood]

Haha. Good to know since I really don't feel like having to buy and swap all those additional parts. The brakes look great on your car. I plan to go with the gloss black version also. It seems like they must have had another issue other than the master cylinder/booster. In the video the guy said he was flooring the brakes and the car wasn't wanting to stop coming into the turns. I believe the explanation was the PP brakes have 9% more surface area which is "significant hydraulically" and "there's no way the base master cylinder will work".

I think they just didn't want to admit they didn't get all the air out of the system

 

[2015Etrac]

I think they just didn't want to admit they didn't get all the air out of the system

LOL, That's one possibility. In the video they claimed that they where almost standing on the brake pedal to get it to stop and it still was not stopping properly at the track. From everything I've seen on this site, the stock master cylinder works fine with the PP brakes. They did say the brakes worked OK for autocross, the issue was on the track. Has anyone had any track time with the upgraded PP brakes and standard master cylinder? Maybe it's only an issue that appears on the track?

 

[BmacIL]

I think they just didn't want to admit they didn't get all the air out of the system

This. I call bullsh!t. The master cylinder for PP brembos would, if anything, have a slightly increased bias to the rear. Putting the brembos on a base car would keep it heavily front biased and let the more powerful fronts do work. It certainly wouldn't prevent it from stopping properly on track or road. Sounds like another possible example of poor bedding of pads/rotors, too.

 

[Houston Kid]

As far as bedding goes I was able to follow the power stop instructions to the T. I went with Z26 pads. I did the one man bleed method with one of those $8 bottle kits from vatozone.

 

[DR_]

His next video will say they worked better but still not that good. Then he will be saying buy my $3800 solution that will destroy all others.
I would have been a lot more impressed if they made the original 4 piston calipers work, since they are beefier than the S197 Brembos they used on their prior race cars, with different rotors and proper ducting.

 

[2015Etrac]

I think you guys are right. It seems like the issue was elsewhere.

 

[re-rx7]

Vorshlag is a well known company. He praises the OE brembos. However, im sure all the air was out of the system. These guys are pros and hold alot of records. Could be yall arent pushing the brakes hard enough to see the effects of the MC being the wrong size.

 

[Houston Kid]

Vorshlag is a well known company. He praises the OE brembos. However, im sure all the air was out of the system. These guys are pros and hold alot of records. Could be yall arent pushing the brakes hard enough to see the effects of the MC being the wrong size.

Possibly. I report back after my first track day but I do push the car very hard for extended periods. Some that ride with me in Mexico say I thought you could only drive like that on a track.

 

[BmacIL]

Vorshlag is a well known company. He praises the OE brembos. However, im sure all the air was out of the system. These guys are pros and hold alot of records. Could be yall arent pushing the brakes hard enough to see the effects of the MC being the wrong size.

They are and that's why this is so shameful for them to post. The base GT MC is the same as the GT350 MC, which has even larger calipers. BS that it's the MC. They didn't get it bled right or didn't bed in the pads. There is enough margin in the design of the MC to account for single digit percentage changes. I've also had the fact that this is BS confirmed by other highly reputable companies who specialize in track parts and cars. Anyone who knows how a hydraulic brake system operates (fluid mechanics) would be extremely skeptical.

 

[mikeD4V]

Has anyone had any track time with the upgraded PP brakes and standard master cylinder? Maybe it's only an issue that appears on the track?

PP brembos with the base GT MC and no brake issues on track (not autoX). 4 sessions per day and 20min per session. It's also on stock brake fluid

 

[Competition Orange]

Vorshlag is a well known company. He praises the OE brembos. However, im sure all the air was out of the system. These guys are pros and hold alot of records. Could be yall arent pushing the brakes hard enough to see the effects of the MC being the wrong size.

hahaha, good one

They are and that's why this is so shameful for them to post. The base GT MC is the same as the GT350 MC, which has even larger calipers. BS that it's the MC. They didn't get it bled right or didn't bed in the pads. There is enough margin in the design of the MC to account for single digit percentage changes. I've also had the fact that this is BS confirmed by other highly reputable companies who specialize in track parts and cars. Anyone who knows how a hydraulic brake system operates (fluid mechanics) would be extremely skeptical.

I'm not saying they're straight up lying but they have to realize their progression looks absolutely ridiculous. As stated earlier, trying and hating the base brakes (probably rightfully so). Then this with the 6 pistons, all to get to their mega pricey BBK that'll without a doubt solve all of their "brake problems" once and for all? PFFT

 

[qtrracer]

This has been a problem for the Fox guys since they started upgrading their brakes to 4-wheel disc using all kinds of variations; from SVO/Lincoln, after market through the various sn95 solutions. Guys, it's a system. That design takes into consideration brake torque bias, which is defined by the caliper piston number and sizes, rotor size, anti-dive, weight bias, weight transfer, ABS calibration, etc. Play with one piece and you mess with the design. "Working great" is not the same as optimal. Vorshlag is looking for optimal under racing conditions.

You'd be surprised what we've learned messing with the brakes on the Fox cars. Some of the first so-called upgrades claimed to be great improvements and were touted as such by many experts. Now we know better and in fact know those produced deficient braking even compared to the originals. Seems we are at the same early point here with the s550s. I'm not saying Vorshlag has figured it out but they are testing what they thought would work and found it didn't. Same with the various Fox brake upgrades. Only early on, we didn't have the likes of Vorshlag testing for us.

I know from my own experience that the M/C piston and fluid displacement must match the piston sizes and numbers in the calipers. "Bigger" outside dimension does not mean larger pistons. In fact, the total displacement might be less than the 4-piston caliper (e.g., 94-98 Cobra = 2x38MM, 13" rotor; 99-04 Cobra = 2x40mm - 13" rotor; 99-04 GT = 2x44mm - 11" rotor). These re not interchangeable without other matching changes for optimal braking - not merely "great" braking. And we haven't even discussed brake torque bias and how the car behaves in dive.

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