Tuning gurus please.

[Burkey]

Hi guys,
I've been running a Lund tune for quite some time now, VERY happy with it.
A mate of mine had his car tuned locally here in Australia, on a dyno, and it can't match the performance, which comes as no surprise to me....
When we pointed this out to the tuner, this is the reply we got -

Timing on the Mustang is controlled entirely by torque and knock control
This means that in our tuning we do not adjust (add or remove) timing in any way.
To do so at the modification level described has no real impact due to the ECU operating in a closed loop scenario.

We leave timing as per the Manufacturers MAP.
The torque levels demanded will search and find MBT (mean best timing).
If there is any knock detected the ECU will monitor this and remove accordingly to the appropriate timing level.
If there is no knock detected the ECU will continue to add timing until it detects knock
Up to 10 degrees timing can be removed or added automatically by the ECU.
This strategy is employed to protect the engine in many varying conditions, while maintain best performance.
This is normal operation.

Many tuners choose to drastically lessen or even remove down to 0 the knock control retard levels. Yes, you can tune to this and create best power in ideal conditions, however when any form of knock contol is required , there is no safety net to reduce timing as normal.

While tuning many Mustang Australia wide we have found that fuels differ, conditions differ therefore drastically , reducing or completely removing knock retard is not offered in our performance package street tuning.
Streetfighter offer 3 Year Factory Driveline Protection whith all our Performance packages and tuning
We see this scenario while logging standard tune files set by factory every day on dyno.
To lessen drastically or remove knock retard only becomes a controlled fuel competition environment tune, eg drags, dyno days etc scenario for best power.

We have found .87 Lambda to be spot on for power, economy, reliability.
Torque control is how this system operates, therefore to log appropriate torque control is absolutely normal.

Good information, however road logging is far from being custom tuning.
Without having the vehicle I suspect what you may be logging is the SF tune entering a Torque control for traction, rev limit, knock for fuel or many other possibilities. .



We carry out up to 10-15 power runs on dyno to exactly log monitor and correctly tune such things.
We log up to 100 parameters at the same time to give us a full and true story of how the ECU and vehicle is operating, not 2.

Road testing is not a recommended for repeated and exacting information. It is a final check.



Now, can someone please interpret that?
Are they leaving the torque management in place?
Lund don't do that do they?
Just trying to better my understanding of the whole thing.
Cheers.

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[markmurfie]

I would say a 3 year driveline warranty has them being extremely conservative to the point they may not even change the stock tune. Just get the MAF dialed in set the WOT lambda table and call it a day. Might appeal to some people looking for insurance if things go bad. I would be as bold to say its almost a scam. When a tuner specifies a 93 octane tune... it becomes a controlled fuel tune. You said your friend was on a dyno and they proceeded to tell you road logging tuning was far from being custom tuned. I'm not sure if their statement "We leave timing as per the Manufacturers MAP." applies to the 10-15 power runs on the dyno to log the 100 parameters. But thats pretty far from custom tuning. Setting the WOT lambda to .87 takes a second to do. Not very custom either.

That being said they seem to understand how the engine is controlled. Its a torque based ECU so you can manipulate the torque and load values and that will effect all other aspects of the tune. You can also just change specific things like spark, knock control, VCT ,ect. the ecu allows many different ways to increase engine performance. All of which are safe when being done correctly.

I would not recommend using this tuner who ever they are.

 

[Dolsvt00]

Personally, I use .82 lambda in some of the tables, and I set more negative retard cross the board, I also increase/reduce the milliseconds between advance/retard. A little richer in certain areas makes quite a bit of TQ difference lol.

Thats about 1% of the tune lol, I'll agree with markmurfie. Sounds like a pretty good sales pitch, but honestly thats why its called tuning.

 

[Burkey]

[MENTION=16352]markmurfie[/MENTION] & [MENTION=18695]Dolsvt00[/MENTION]
Thanks guys. I was just looking for a little clarity, you've both provided. :cheers:

 

[OzS550]

Thanks for the thread Burkey, I'm trying to better understand how the ECU in our cars work and would be most grateful if anyone could enlighten me.

Does the ECU work in closed loop at all times? If not when does it go to open loop?

If the ECU can adjust timing etc to achieve MBT, once you make hardware changes such as LT headers that improve flow, wouldn't the ECU self adjust to make more power?

I imagine closed loop timing is mostly about fuel efficiency whereas open loop is more for WOT and max power.

Trouble is I don't know what I don't know and not sure what to ask! Any basics appreciated.

 

[arghx7]

Wait a minute OP. Can you clarify something? I'm trying to understand if this is an apples to apples comparison.

You got a remote E-tune (Lund tune). Did you run it on a dyno? And if you did you run it on the same dyno your friend did? What do you mean it doesn't match the performance? You ran it on a drag strip or circuit racing somewhere and so did he?

Does your friend have the EXACT same hardware as you?

 

[Burkey]

Wait a minute OP. Can you clarify something? I'm trying to understand if this is an apples to apples comparison.

You got a remote E-tune (Lund tune). Did you run it on a dyno? And if you did you run it on the same dyno your friend did? What do you mean it doesn't match the performance? You ran it on a drag strip or circuit racing somewhere and so did he?

Does your friend have the EXACT same hardware as you?

Yes, I have Lund tune (93, flex and race).
I have not had my car on a dyno.
We compared his car (dyno tuned, LT headers, 3" catback) to a COMPLETELY stock car by using 3rd gear roll ons. There was literally NO difference in the performance of either vehicle.
Needless to say, the owner of the dyno tuned car then drove mine (E85 race tune, same headers, 3" catback and PMAS) at which point he decided to jump to Lund.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

While most of what the tuner said to you is correct, timing will be adjusted by the PCM to move towards MBT, its able to add somewhere between 4 to 10 degrees depending on your calibration (see below where markmurfie described some), with a degree or two more allowed for intake temps, air fuel ratio, and engine temps.

In my experience so far, most tuners here in the states prefer to command a timing curve they have developed through 100's of tunes they have done, and NOT allow the PCM to add any timing beyond what they have commanded OR they do not allow the PCM to "learn" the octane adjustment. Their timing curves are a bit more aggressive than stock but are still well in the safety zone of 93 octane. They leave all the knock logic in the tune, so if the timing becomes too aggressive for a given day it can still pull back timing, but they are extracting a bit more power by starting off commanding a higher spark timing instead of letting the PCM adjust its way through the rpm range.

When you add mods like headers, cold air intakes, the tune doesn't need much adjustments, usually just some minor tweaks to the MAF sensor tables and to the o2 sensor tables to let it know more air is coming in and out. The power from those mods comes from the hardware itself (i.e. the fact that more air is now flowing through), tuners just need to keep the PCM happy. Headers sometimes can allow a touch more timing given the same octane since its helping evacuate the cylinders of spent fuel and keeps things a little cooler, but it aint much. A bolt on car benefits the most in the upper rpm range (past 6500) when headers and intake manifolds are added and then retuned/rescaled, since the stock tune pretty much assumes its all over at 6200 where the factory intake manifold and headers keel over. Trying to run these mods without that type of retune will result in little if any power gains.

 

[markmurfie]

While most of what the tuner said to you is correct, what is NOT correct is that the factory calibration allows up to 10 degrees to be pulled or added, its not that much, its somewhere between 2 to 4 degrees depending on RPM, with a degree or two more allowed for intake temps, air fuel ratio, and engine temps. On a cold cold day, with your engine cool and lambda a touch on the rich side, you could see 5 degrees added in the midrange rpm area.

In a stock 2015-2017 tune knock retard limit is -10 and knock advance limit is 10. The knock logic has a far greater effect on spark advance than environmental spark correction tables. I think in the 2011-2014 is was more like 8*. In the boss 302 its 15*. The GT350 has it at 6* with it dropping to 2.5 above 5500RPM.


In my experience so far, most tuners here in the states prefer to command a timing curve they have developed through 100's of tunes they have done, and NOT allow the PCM to add any timing beyond what they have commanded. Their timing curves are a bit more aggressive than stock but are still well in the safety zone of 93 octane. They leave all the knock logic in the tune, so if the timing becomes too aggressive for a given day it can still pull back timing, but they are extracting a bit more power by starting off commanding a higher spark timing instead of letting the PCM adjust its way through the rpm range. When guys tuned by these tuners log their cars and see the PCM adding 1 or 2 degrees of timing, its NOT the knock based logic adding it but instead its the environmental based tables (air temp, coolant temp, lambda) that are adding timing.

Environmental based spark correction does not show up as knock advance/retard. Its just applied as part of the spark advanced final total. If a tuner is not utilizing the ECU to keep SAFTOT on the actual borderline with the knock logic correctly the car will not make more power than the factory tune. The true goal of the spark advance would be MBT, which is also defined in the tune. Most fuel will knock before this goal is achieved.

When you add mods like headers, cold air intakes, the tune doesn't need much adjustments, usually just some minor tweaks to the MAF sensor tables and to the o2 sensor tables to let it know more air is coming in and out. The power from those mods comes from the hardware itself (i.e. the fact that more air is now flowing through), tuners just need to keep the PCM happy. Headers sometimes can allow a touch more timing given the same octane since its helping evacuate the cylinders of spent fuel and keeps things a little cooler, but it ain't much. A bolt on car benefits the most in the upper rpm range (past 6500) when headers and intake manifolds are added and then retuned/rescaled, since the stock tune pretty much assumes its all over at 6200 where the factory intake manifold and headers keel over. Trying to run these mods without that type of retune will result in little if any power gains.

You don't keep a PCM happy by removing or not giving it information about what its doing. Giving it false information can be even worst. Things work best when you work with the ECU not against it.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

I'll reply more once I have my laptop back up running, but to your last comment, don't get where you come off implying I said to fool the pcm, I said just the opposite, but want to put it out there that it's not a MASSIVE amount of retune needed for basic bolt ons, and not to let a novice tuner convince you otherwise to rape your wallet.

 

[markmurfie]

Didn't imply you said anything, hence the quote. I don't think it's too hard to distinguish where we agree and disagree.

 

[Plimmer]

Thanks for the thread Burkey, I'm trying to better understand how the ECU in our cars work and would be most grateful if anyone could enlighten me.

Does the ECU work in closed loop at all times? If not when does it go to open loop?

If the ECU can adjust timing etc to achieve MBT, once you make hardware changes such as LT headers that improve flow, wouldn't the ECU self adjust to make more power?

I imagine closed loop timing is mostly about fuel efficiency whereas open loop is more for WOT and max power.

Trouble is I don't know what I don't know and not sure what to ask! Any basics appreciated.

Yes, its in closed loop all the time, fuel is adjusted based on feedback from the wideband oxygen sensors. It has an "Optimum Power" mode where it runs different fueling for more power. There are MBT timing tables, but in my experience, and as the other guy pointed out, the ECM never adds enough timing to get MBT. Tuners generally bump up the timing tables so total timing gets closer to MBT. The intake and exhaust cams are also adjustable through the tune. There are so many tables in the ECM that it takes a long time to change everything from scratch, like more than 56 timing tables.

 

[arghx7]

We compared his car (dyno tuned, LT headers, 3" catback) to a COMPLETELY stock car by using 3rd gear roll ons. There was literally NO difference in the performance of either vehicle.

Does that mean you ran his tuned car and a different completely stock car on the same dyno on the same day and the power and torque curves were within a couple horsepower and he was disappointed?

Or does that mean he street raced a stock car from a 3rd gear roll and was upset that he didn't pull away? And then he drove your car which is basically running race fuel (E85 is effectively race fuel and allows a lot more spark timing) and was happy with it and thinks it's because of the tuner?

What's the real story here?

 

[arghx7]

Why don't you run the three cars on the same dyno on the same day and ask the guy who actually tuned the car in question (the car belonging to the guy who lost the street race) to explain how his tune compares to a stock PCM tune, the performance tune in question, and your E85 Lund tune using datalogs from each vehicle?

And then it leaves the realm of speculation and stating of preferences...

 

[TooSoonJunior]

You don't keep a PCM happy by removing or not giving it information about what its doing. Giving it false information can be even worst. Things work best when you work with the ECU not against it.

You are correct on the timing adders, I was incorrectly looking at the Knock Learn table.

FYI FRPP 3 operating system is one of the lowest like the GT350, 4 degrees going down to 2 degrees in the upper rpm range.

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