Will a DSP help?

[rocknstang]

I have the 401A Shaker Pro with sub and have bypassed the factory amps to install a 5 channel Alpine X-A90V and Focal PS 165 FX 2 way components in the doors and A pillars..

So I'm running four speakers up front (no mids in upper doors or center channel) using the supplied passive crossovers. The stock rears are running off the rear 2 channels on the Alpine.

If I leave the balance in the middle, the right side woofer dominates. I have to move the balance about 3 clicks left to get somewhat close to a middle image (or I should say equal energy left and right).

I generally run a front heavy stage with almost no rear fill. But the Focals don't offer sufficient mid bass so I do add a little rear fill because the rears do add good mid bass.

So I'm trying to figure out how to salvage this install because I'm frustrated with the imaging and lack of mid bass in front.

Will a DSP help?

Should I add a 3 1/2 mid to the upper doors to help with left side sound (IOW - should I have gone 3 way?)

I'm considering going back to stock. It doesn't sound as clear or as loud but it was balanced much better than what I have.

What would you do?

Thanks!

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[Racemaster]

I started out keeping it 3-way,so I couldn't really answer that one.The focals have a fantastic sounding midrange driver on their 3-way setup,but the tweeters can get overbearing sometimes with some types of music.I settled for the Hertz mille pro based on the sound/price point.The tweeters never bite your head off like some others dther people have said that CDT also has a nice sound/price point.

As far as a DSP,yes it is needed to go to the next level of tuning.I started with a JL amp that only has adjustments for cutoff frequency,very limited.
My next jump was to a helix dsp/amp combo.You can adjust the input eq,output eq,crossovers and the very important time alignment.The closer the driver is to your ear,the more delay it gets.

Helix,Mosconi,JL audio and I am sure others have DSP's that will work.I like the software on the helix as it is easy to use.
As far as rearfill,I use a cheap set of jbl's.I cross them at 80-3000Hz,but also sum them to mono with the dsp.The gain is adjusted so it does not distract from the front stage.

Don't give up just yet,you did most of the hard work already getting what you have running.

 

[rocknstang]

Thanks, Racemaster, for the encouragement. The thing is, I listened to several sets in the store and chose the Flax based on how natural they sounded. In my car, they do sound very good but for some reason they don't give the mid bass I was expecting.

I didn't mention this in the OP, but I also have the treble and mid turned down about 3 clicks and the bass turned up about 3 clicks in the HU. If these were all centered the sound would be heavily weighted to the mids and highs.

I don't really want to change out drivers because of expense but would like to see what I could do to make what I have better. If it can only get somewhat better then I might look at other drivers.

When you get everything time aligned do you still have to a heavy left balance to keep the right side from over powering the left side?

Again thanks!

 

[UserName]

Thanks, Racemaster, for the encouragement. The thing is, I listened to several sets in the store and chose the Flax based on how natural they sounded. In my car, they do sound very good but for some reason they don't give the mid bass I was expecting.

I didn't mention this in the OP, but I also have the treble and mid turned down about 3 clicks and the bass turned up about 3 clicks in the HU. If these were all centered the sound would be heavily weighted to the mids and highs.

I don't really want to change out drivers because of expense but would like to see what I could do to make what I have better. If it can only get somewhat better then I might look at other drivers.

When you get everything time aligned do you still have to a heavy left balance to keep the right side from over powering the left side?

Again thanks!

It seems to be common that folks don't get the desired mid bass with just swapping drivers. Did you treat your doors with damping and what not?

[ame]

You can adjust the gains down on the amp for the mids and highs to bring it in line to play well with the sub. Do you have a multi meter to verify that both sides are getting the same power output from the amp? With both sides being equal, the DSP will literally make you feel like you are sitting in the center of the sound stage. Seems odd that the right side would overpower the left though as the amp only has a gain adjustment for Channel 1/2 or Channel 3/4 and not independent gains for each channel. It almost sounds like they hooked up the fronts to channels 1 and 3 and the rears on 2 and 4 with different gain settings.

 

[rocknstang]

It seems to be common that folks don't get the desired mid bass with just swapping drivers. Did you treat your doors with damping and what not?

A local shop did the install. I'm pretty sure they just swapped drivers. I found it rather frustrating that the factory paper woofer produced better mid bass than the high end Focal. But we've bypassed the factory amp so maybe the factory amp was playing a big part in that. I've watched that video before. Maybe I need to go that route. But that seems like a lot of work to get an aftermarket high end woofer to perform as well as the factory woofer in that frequency range.

You can adjust the gains down on the amp for the mids and highs to bring it in line to play well with the sub.

Yep. Done that.

Do you have a multi meter to verify that both sides are getting the same power output from the amp? With both sides being equal, the DSP will literally make you feel like you are sitting in the center of the sound stage. Seems odd that the right side would overpower the left though as the amp only has a gain adjustment for Channel 1/2 or Channel 3/4 and not independent gains for each channel.

I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that when I'm the only one in the car the left side woofer is playing directly into my left leg. I'm probably 80° off axis. The right side woofer is playing unobstructed into the cabin and I'm probably only 30° or so off axis so I hear the sound coming from that woofer more than the one down by my leg.

If I sit in the passenger seat the effect is the opposite.

Whatever Ford does in the amp/DSP it works well enough for imaging. Better than what I have now.

 

[mumbles]

Remember, a DSP with time alignment won't work well with your passive crossovers. So, if you decide to go with a DSP to take advantage of time alignment, you should also consider going fully active by ditching your passive crossovers. That will require that you either use all four of your amps front stage channels to power the 4 speakers, or add an additional amp so you can keep your rear channels... or you could power them from the factory amp. You stated earlier that you prefer a "front heavy" stage, so the rears might not be missed.

What you do from here is going to depend upon how serious you are about music and how much you are willing to spend...

 

[rocknstang]

Remember, a DSP with time alignment won't work well with your passive crossovers. So, if you decide to go with a DSP to take advantage of time alignment, you should also consider going fully active by ditching your passive crossovers. That will require that you either use all four of your amps front stage channels to power the 4 speakers, or add an additional amp so you can keep your rear channels... or you could power them from the factory amp. You stated earlier that you prefer a "front heavy" stage, so the rears might not be missed.

That seems to be where I'm at - a decision point. The system as a whole sounds a lot better when I add a little rear fill. The mid bass added by the stock rears give the overall sound more "body" or "fullness" that seems to be missing from just the Focals.

Even if the time alignment doesn't work well, I'm hoping just being able to EQ each side would offer enough improvement.

What you do from here is going to depend upon how serious you are about music and how much you are willing to spend...

Ain't that the truth! I started out just wanting more clarity and a bit more volume. Got a little taste and now I want to make it better. Probably got ahead of myself....

 

[mumbles]

That seems to be where I'm at - a decision point. The system as a whole sounds a lot better when I add a little rear fill. The mid bass added by the stock rears give the overall sound more "body" or "fullness" that seems to be missing from just the Focals.

Even if the time alignment doesn't work well, I'm hoping just being able to EQ each side would offer enough improvement.



Ain't that the truth! I started out just wanting more clarity and a bit more volume. Got a little taste and now I want to make it better. Probably got ahead of myself....

Just to summarize/verify where you are at;

• You have the highs/mids turned down in the head unit so they don't dominate the sound.
• You have the balance biased towards the driver because the passengers mid-bass overpowers the sound otherwise.
• You want more punch out of the mid-bass region so you have the fader biased to the rear to provide that.

Focal describes their Flax driver as being neutral to provide a natural sound. While that may satisfy some listeners, it won't satisfy all, and I think you fall in the same category that I do when it comes to mid-bass... more is better than less

Before I go spending your hard earned money by recommending different speakers, there are a couple of things you can try;

• First, double check the amplifiers crossover setting and make sure it is set near the 50Hz side and not the 400Hz side. If you're really lucky, it will be sitting towards 400Hz and simply filtering out the mid-bass frequencies!
• On the physical crossovers, set the tweeter level switch to -3db (this will effectively reduce the tweeter output and you can likely return the EQ settings on the head unit to where they were).
• Also on the physical crossovers, you could try setting the midrange switch to 'High' on the drivers side & 'Flat' on the passengers side (this should reduce the output of the passengers driver so it no longer dominates).
• Finally, the sensitivity of that speaker set is kind of low, so it will take a bit of power to get a solid output. You could try increasing the gain a tiny amount on the front channels to see if you can get some of that punch you're looking for. I wouldn't go crazy here. Then, mess with the mid/bass EQ on the head unit to see if you can improve the sound. I would also take notes along the way, to keep track of changes.

If you try the above and still aren't happy, the next thing I would do would be to add a subwoofer and take the burden of creating bass off the Focals.

I've got some other ideas, but hopefully these will get you closer...

 

[rocknstang]

Just to summarize/verify where you are at;

• You have the highs/mids turned down in the head unit so they don't dominate the sound.
• You have the balance biased towards the driver because the passengers mid-bass overpowers the sound otherwise.
• You want more punch out of the mid-bass region so you have the fader biased to the rear to provide that.

Correct. I have treble down about 4 clicks, mid down about 3 clicks and bass up about 3 clicks.

When I say the right mid bass dominates, the effect is that my right ear is way more tired than my left. That may be the tweeter, too. Hard to tell. I've noticed that when the rears are engaged they exacerbate the effect on my right ear, even with the balance shifted left.

Focal describes their Flax driver as being neutral to provide a natural sound. While that may satisfy some listeners, it won't satisfy all, and I think you fall in the same category that I do when it comes to mid-bass... more is better than less

I like classic rock and 80's hard rock / metal, so yeah. Love the natural sound, but things are a bit uneven.

Before I go spending your hard earned money by recommending different speakers, there are a couple of things you can try;

• First, double check the amplifiers crossover setting and make sure it is set near the 50Hz side and not the 400Hz side. If you're really lucky, it will be sitting towards 400Hz and simply filtering out the mid-bass frequencies!

• 
  
  The HPF was set to 50. Since the Fs on the woofer is 74Hz, I'm sure this is too low. I'll bump it up to 100 or so.
  
  

  [*]On the physical crossovers, set the tweeter level switch to -3db (this will effectively reduce the tweeter output and you can likely return the EQ settings on the head unit to where they were).

  This is challenging. They mounted the xovers in the footwell where the stock amp was. So with my back it's hard to get up in there and poke around. But I'll give it a go, carefully.
  
  

  [*]Also on the physical crossovers, you could try setting the midrange switch to 'High' on the drivers side & 'Flat' on the passengers side (this should reduce the output of the passengers driver so it no longer dominates).

  Ah. Good idea. I had seen that switch on a diagram in the owner's manual, but no mention of what it did.
  
  

  [*]Finally, the sensitivity of that speaker set is kind of low, so it will take a bit of power to get a solid output. You could try increasing the gain a tiny amount on the front channels to see if you can get some of that punch you're looking for. I wouldn't go crazy here. Then, mess with the mid/bass EQ on the head unit to see if you can improve the sound. I would also take notes along the way, to keep track of changes.

  The X-A90V says 75wx4 at 4 ohms. Right now the gain is set to about 11 o'clock where noon is default middle. 7 o'clock is labeled "min" and 5 o'clock is labeled "max." On some modern tracks, the speakers break up around 27 - 28 on the HU volume setting. Since I have the HPF too low I think raising that will allow me to run a little more gain on the amp.
  
  However, if I run the fronts too much harder, they out run the sub. The balance is about right in terms of output (for me anyway).
  

If you try the above and still aren't happy, the next thing I would do would be to add a subwoofer and take the burden of creating bass off the Focals.

I've got some other ideas, but hopefully these will get you closer...

I've got a RF P3SD2-8 running at 4ohms in the stock Shaker Pro enclosure. It's running off the 5th channel. Amp says 300w @ 4 ohms, but the gain is turned up to around 2 or 3 o'clock. So I'm getting decent bass from the sub.

I'll update later today after I get a chance to tweak some things. Thank you so much!!

 

[rocknstang]

Quick update on the L/R issue.

Do you have a multi meter to verify that both sides are getting the same power output from the amp? With both sides being equal, the DSP will literally make you feel like you are sitting in the center of the sound stage. Seems odd that the right side would overpower the left though as the amp only has a gain adjustment for Channel 1/2 or Channel 3/4 and not independent gains for each channel. It almost sounds like they hooked up the fronts to channels 1 and 3 and the rears on 2 and 4 with different gain settings.

So yesterday I had to take the car to the shop to get some install loose ends wrapped up (loose cabling in the footwell and headliner not reseated) and after I left there I thought I noticed a bigger presence on the left side.

Had to run two errands today. I definitely noticed the energy had moved left, so I recentered the balance on the HU and now everything is about equal L to R. Now I'm thinking I have either a loose connection somewhere on the front left side or that channel is flaky.

Thinking back to the noise issues I had when I first picked up the car, the noise was primarily in the front left woofer. Hmmm...

Anyway, I think we're close to closing this thread out. When the HU is centered and I'm getting full output from the front, the sound is certainly better. I need to listen to a few different sources, but I'm not unhappy right now.

 

[2016Gruv]

I agree, it sounds like an intermittent connection that warrants a thorough inspection.

Regarding the amp, it appears you have the gain set where it ought to be to maintain balance between the front speakers and the sub and to keep from overdriving the fronts. If anything, you may want to adjust it down a hair to avoid the distortion you're hearing at the 27-28 mark. Contrary to what was implied in another post, increasing amp gain does not generate more power. It only changes the sensitivity to input voltage. You can drive an amp to full power no matter where the gain is set.

 

[mumbles]

Contrary to what was implied in another post, increasing amp gain does not generate more power. It only changes the sensitivity to input voltage. You can drive an amp to full power no matter where the gain is set.

Yeah, I can see where it came across like that... my actual implication was that if the input gain had not been properly matched to the head units output, there could be room for improvement.

For example, if the input gain was set too low, for volume to reach a given level, rocknstang would turn the head unit volume to, say, 10. By increasing the gain slightly (matching), he could reach the same volume level by turning the volume level to 8. Note that I said to use caution as adding too much gain can introduce distortion.

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