Whipple Stage 2 Engine failure (2017)

[mike3105]

Hey,

Looking for some advice. (Based in the UK for the benefit of terminology and solutions)

My car (Jan 2018 pre-facelift manual GT) is getting a new block right now as Pistons 1 and 6 decided that they'd had enough of life.

I had a bog-standard Whipple Stage 2 installed at the end of July, it's on the Whipple map and has no modifications to the drivetrain outside the standard Stage 2 kit and exhaust (h-pipe and street-focused axle backs).

I went on a track day (circuit not drag strip) mid-August and on the second lap (around 400 miles after the install) I suddenly lost the engine as I went from full throttle on the straight to braking for the corner. There was a lot of smoke behind me that appeared and as I pulled into the pits (thankfully second to last corner) a small fire had started as oil hit the exhaust.

The garage got the car (specialist and a great reputation) and upon inspection could see the piston rings from the top in cylinders 1 and 6. Cats look fine except now having a coating of oil.

Upon contacting Whipple they've blamed two things, the open grill (RTR style grill) and Fosters sound tube. For the open grill they say that it could confuse the map and cause bad fuelling (a rich/lean cycle), but say that the cats would fail - which they haven't in this case. For the Fosters sound tube they say that it could (in theory) change the amount of air entering the engine to be different from what the MAF sees. I'm personally not sold on the explanation and think it's a cop-out.

One thing I'd like to do so I don't end up selling the car is get some confidence back in it, and I'm looking for advice so see whether this is random back luck, the Whipple actually being that sensitive to the air coming in through the filter and intake, "just the risk you take", or a bad tune.

A few Qs after my wall of text:

1. People with more knowledge and experience, would you say that it's a reasonable explanation for what happened?
2. In terms of resolving it, it's getting a new block and rebuilt, but would that give you confidence along with going back to a standard grill, or would you think that it's essential to get a proper dyne tune on it? Is it my stupidity with the sound tube and Whipple tune, or should a good tune be able to handle those things?
3. Is it reasonable to expect a Whipple and pre-facelift to be able to handle a 15min track session on a fairly simple circuit in UK weather (21 celcius)?

EDIT: Just to clarify I'm not looking to blame or claim money back, but this is solely around getting some trust back in the drivetrain and car as if I can't I'll be getting rid, and before this happened I loved it.

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[HKusp]

I don't think they are correct, but they want to alleviate as much blame/suspicion as they can from themselves, and honestly, it's not their fault. It's Ford's top ring gap. I suspect, you were running the car for an extended period of time on a road course and put enough heat in the pistons to close the ring gap until it broke the ring land off of #1 and #6 pistons. I and a few others have done similar. The stock top ring gap is too tight on these engines at .009 for boost with any extended pulls. It starts to close and when it closes, the ring land fails.

If you are rebuilding the engine, I would have the builder gap the top 2 rings at least .025. You won't lose compression, and it will be much more friendly when you do it again.

Edit: added the photos of my #6 piston to demonstrate the issue.

 

[mike3105]

I don't think they are correct, but they want to alleviate as much blame/suspicion as they can from themselves, and honestly, it's not their fault. It's Ford's top ring gap. I suspect, you were running the car for an extended period of time on a road course and put enough heat in the pistons to close the ring gap until it broke the ring land off of #1 and #6 pistons. I and a few others have done similar. The stock top ring gap is too tight on these engines at .009 for boost with any extended pulls. It starts to close and when it closes, the ring land fails.

If you are rebuilding the engine, I would have the builder gap the top 2 rings at least .025. You won't lose compression, and it will be much more friendly when you do it again.

Thank you for the response.

At the moment the plan is to build the engine as standard. It's just putting the kit as delivered by Ford back together. It doubles the price to get it properly built and as an unexpected expense it's already a lot more than I wanted to spend. To be honest, if I'd known I wouldn't have gone supercharged in the first place.

It was only 2 mins into any hard driving, do you think that would be enough to cause this?

 

[HKusp]

If you were WOT for a good portion of it, it could cause detonation and these engines in stock form are not too good once you are getting detonation. I would HIGHLY recommend that you consider gapping the rings. Either that, or going with an Ethanol fuel and custom tuning, but I don't know the situation for ethanol availability in the UK.

 

[J17GT]

Whipple has a warning in the manual about modifications or changes to the front fascia can cause "running issues" with fueling. Below is a pic of that page in the manual. Not sure why it says 2018+ when this is the manual for my 2017 car. But I doubt this was the main cause of your engine failure.

What fuel was in the car? The whipple tune requires 91+ octane. Even with 93 octane I always add some boostane for extra insurance when racing the car (I do some drag racing).

Bummed for you that it didn't last long. I do not think your experience is very typical, but it does happen. Always a risk when going with boost. Especially when running pump gas.

 

[mike3105]

If you were WOT for a good portion of it, it could cause detonation and these engines in stock form are not too good once you are getting detonation. I would HIGHLY recommend that you consider gapping the rings. Either that, or going with an Ethanol fuel and custom tuning, but I don't the situation for ethanol availability in the UK.

Ethanol not a viable option in the UK, at least around where I live unfortunately.

I did enquire with the garage about Mahle pistons etc., and whilst the parts were cheap the quote to send the engine off to a proper engine builder to do the work was more than the cost of the block! I will double check that just gapping the rings isn't a small part of that and more reasonable.

 

[frestylmotox01]

@HKusp, does that apply to both Gen 2 and Gen 3 Motors?

 

[J17GT]

Ethanol not a viable option in the UK, at least around where I live unfortunately.

I did enquire with the garage about Mahle pistons etc., and whilst the parts were cheap the quote to send the engine off to a proper engine builder to do the work was more than the cost of the block! I will double check that just gapping the rings isn't a small part of that and more reasonable.

Another option would be just to put a Ford aluminator shortblock in the car and be on your way. That's the route I'll go if I ever end up in your situation. The aluminator will be fine unless you're really pushing big power.

 

[mike3105]

Whipple has a warning in the manual about modifications or changes to the front fascia can cause "running issues" with fueling. Below is a pic of that page in the manual. Not sure why it says 2018+ when this is the manual for my 2017 car. But I doubt this was the main cause of your engine failure.

What fuel was in the car? The whipple tune requires 91+ octane. Even with 93 octane I always add some boostane for extra insurance when racing the car (I do some drag racing).

Bummed for you that it didn't last long. I do not think your experience is very typical, but it does happen. Always a risk when going with boost. Especially when running pump gas.

I was running the best 99RON (I think the same as a decent 93 in the US?) and have always done with the car. Thanks for the response. It doesn't sound like the more I read that maybe a Whipple isn't the right thing for a car that does occasional track-days without more work to support it.

 

[HKusp]

You CAN do it yourself, it just takes a few specialty tools that shouldn't cost a lot. I am not sure how handy you may or may not be, but it's pretty straight forward. That being said, it shouldn't cost too much just to file the rings. They have to pull the pistons to do it, but it's not a total tear down.

 

[mike3105]

You CAN do it yourself, it just takes a few specialty tools that shouldn't cost a lot. I am not sure how handy you may or may not be, but it's pretty straight forward. That being said, it shouldn't cost too much just to file the rings. They have to pull the pistons to do it, but it's not a total tear down.

The engine is already in pieces ready for the block to be delivered, so shouldn't be that big a job for the garage hopefully. I'll ping them a message and see what they say. Thank you!

 

[J17GT]

I was running the best 99RON (I think the same as a decent 93 in the US?) and have always done with the car. Thanks for the response. It doesn't sound like the more I read that maybe a Whipple isn't the right thing for a car that does occasional track-days without more work to support it.

Google says that's as good as our pump 93 if not better. Either you had a bad tank of fuel or possibly your rings were just setup a bit tight right from the factory and just didn't like the boost. How big was the track? Were you WOT for a long extended period? I've put a bunch of track passes on my car, but that's only 10-11 secs at WOT at a time.

 

[mike3105]

Google says that's as good as our pump 93 if not better. Either you had a bad tank of fuel or possibly your rings were just setup a bit tight right from the factory and just didn't like the boost. How big was the track? Were you WOT for a long extended period? I've put a bunch of track passes on my car, but that's only 10-11 secs at WOT at a time.

It's Goodwood which is quite a straight track. I would say the longest straight is 15-20 seconds, but it does have three bits that are >8s at full throttle. The failure happened at the end of the Lavant straight.

 

[HKusp]

How many laps in were you? I was in stop and go traffic for about 30 mins at about 95*+ F (35*C) ambient temps, then got out on the highway with 2 GT500's and we were doing repeated pulls from 60-120mph for 7 mins when mine popped.

 

[J17GT]

It's Goodwood which is quite a straight track. I would say the longest straight is 15-20 seconds, but it does have three bits that are >8s at full throttle. The failure happened at the end of the Lavant straight.

That track looks like a good time! Sounds like some decent extended periods of WOT back to back. As efficient as these blowers are, that will still generate a lot of heat.

Best of luck getting things back together!

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