Which Long Tube Headers...help

[Stuntman]

I'm aware of this. I'm not sure you comprehend sometimes. We data logged while on the dyno and the o2 stated its lean. As did off dyno data logging. Lund does dyno tuning over the phone with adjustments being made via email. But none of that was done while I was on watsons dyno for time reason.

I'm not sure you comprehend because you brought up data logging, which is just recording what is seen during the pull. A mid 14 AFR from a tailpipe sniffer (which as I said reads lean) is still slightly artificially lean whether you record it or not. If you said you were data logging a wideband O2 sensor that would be a different story, but you didn't clarify.:headbonk:

And I'm very familiar with Lund's tunes.

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[Voodooo]

I'm not sure you comprehend because you brought up data logging, which is just recording what is seen during the pull. A mid 14 AFR from a tailpipe sniffer (which as I said reads lean) is still slightly artificially lean whether you record it or not. If you said you were data logging a wideband O2 sensor that would be a different story, but you didn't clarify.:headbonk:

And I'm very familiar with Lund's tunes.

I give up on this topic. But in the end the answer to the original question to this thread is....ARH have made more power. I still find it amusing that you say the cats cause 10hp when nicks car reported 29 Hp.

 

[Stuntman]

I give up on this topic. But in the end the answer to the original question to this thread is....ARH have made more power. I still find it amusing that you say the cats cause 10hp when nicks car reported 29 Hp.

I'll just cliff note and recap all the facts (the most GT350 headers ive found so-far):

-Lethal's off-road track pipes (cat-deletes) made 10whp with no tune on a stock car.
-Kooks Headers & HFC (no tune) made 15whp over stock.
-ARH & HFC (w.JLT & Tune) made 18.48whp over tuned JLT stock header/exhaust.
-Your ARH & HFC (stock tune) probably made ~20whp over stock (30whp SAE baseline vs STD post header)
-Nick's ARH and HFCs (no tune) made 29whp over stock -which is impressive.
-ARH & HFC + JLT + Tune made 31whp over JLT & tune.
-ARH has made more power thusfar. I never said they didn't.

I'll just leave it at:

For cars, 1+1 =/=2. For example, if upgrading the rear mufflers nets 10whp and an off-road mid-pipe separately has a 10whp gain; it's unlikely that together they will result in a 20whp gain. Could be more, but likely less. This is why if you're looking for the gains of JUST the header, you need to isolate the change of JUST the header in back to back testing, and not add variables like HFC, tunes, intakes, octane changes, etc...

I think i'm done here.

 

[Voodooo]

I'll just cliff note and recap all the facts (the most GT350 headers ive found so-far):

-Lethal's off-road track pipes (cat-deletes) made 10whp with no tune on a stock car.
-Kooks Headers & HFC (no tune) made 15whp over stock.
-ARH & HFC (w.JLT & Tune) made 18.48whp over tuned JLT stock header/exhaust.
-Your ARH & HFC (stock tune) probably made ~20whp over stock (30whp SAE baseline vs STD post header)
-Nick's ARH and HFCs (no tune) made 29whp over stock -which is impressive.
-ARH & HFC + JLT + Tune made 31whp over JLT & tune.
-ARH has made more power thusfar. I never said they didn't.

I'll just leave it at:

For cars, 1+1 =/=2. For example, if upgrading the rear mufflers nets 10whp and an off-road mid-pipe separately has a 10whp gain; it's unlikely that together they will result in a 20whp gain. Could be more, but likely less. This is why if you're looking for the gains of JUST the header, you need to isolate the change of JUST the header in back to back testing, and not add variables like HFC, tunes, intakes, octane changes, etc...

I think i'm done here.

Is your name Jeff?
I don't recall anyone saying the headers alone gained X amount of power. As you and I said before a engine dyno test would be best but nobody has a voodoo laying around.

 

[superman07]

again, I see your points but isolating header gain only is silly in my opinion and a waste of your time and energy for all the reasons you keep bringing up across multiple threads and statements.

1. Anyone getting long tube headers will not likely stop there
2. 1 plus 1 is not equal to 2 in cases where multiple bolt on's are concerned
3. The audience for the product will without fail also be in the market for a tune
4. The variables are considerable, and I really think what you are trying to quantify is absolutely impossible, especially given the number of Voodoos out there and the cross section of current header owners, and the number of verified tunes optimized thus far.

I feel like your trying to get scientific engineering quality information in an amusement park.

I can say the off road pipes were a bust on my car and the Lund Flex fuel tune. Even with good gas the low end suffered, street driving was impaired. Possibly NVH and false knock but for whatever reason they will not be going back on, ever. The last data log Lund reviewed looked ok but the car was just slower. Made no sense.

 

[Hack]

I'm telling you from experience and owning the very ARH system that their is no vibration. SNIP I'm not here to tell anyone how or where to spend your hard earned money, but I can tell you without a doubt their is no vibrations.

My stock Voodoo has plenty of vibration. Could you please clarify? I'm assuming you mean you don't think your vibration is worse than stock - even though the dampers have been deleted?

system must provide a driveable and vibration free experience. .

Seems like vibration is one of those intangibles. We need a repeatable measurement rather than people's opinions if it can be compared. I assume that any aftermarket system will have more vibration than the one that Ford designed. The question I'm asking myself is how much more vibration.

 

[Voodooo]

My stock Voodoo has plenty of vibration. Could you please clarify? I'm assuming you mean you don't think your vibration is worse than stock - even though the dampers have been deleted?



Seems like vibration is one of those intangibles. We need a repeatable measurement rather than people's opinions if it can be compared. I assume that any aftermarket system will have more vibration than the one that Ford designed. The question I'm asking myself is how much more vibration.

Hack, I'm saying over stock.
I know this is long debated, but no exhaust company that I know of has any way to measure exhaust harmonics. But I can tell you from my own experience from having long tubes on my own car the vibrations are no different. Every car no matter stock or aftermarket will have sound pulses. No way around that with an internal combustion engine. You can add a damper to any exhaust but how does one know if it's helping and if it's placement is helping where the person places it without the proper measurements. Just throwing a stock damper on a long tube header doesn't mean that it's stopping or helping anything. Cobra jet mustangs vibrate ALOT and the seem to do fine. I know that's not a apple to apple comparison though.

 

[superman07]

Vibration is subjective, I consider the stock car vibration level certainly acceptable, like it gives it some character so I'm not a what I would call a ride quality snob. My car stock mostly picks up some with the shifter and at some rpm holds will vibrate keys if in the console / cup holder. The off road pipes however gave me several rpm ranges that resonated through the entire seating area, you wouldn't notice it necessarily in hard driving where your blasting through the range quickly but DD was horrendous, to the point of being embarrassing with a passenger.

Scott do you get any peaky resonance from 2.8.4.5k rpm? I know once you get higher the pulses are going to be there but at that RPM its expected.

 

[Voodooo]

Vibration is subjective, I consider the stock car vibration level certainly acceptable, like it gives it some character so I'm not a what I would call a ride quality snob. My car stock mostly picks up some with the shifter and at some rpm holds will vibrate keys if in the console / cup holder. The off road pipes however gave me several rpm ranges that resonated through the entire seating area, you wouldn't notice it necessarily in hard driving where your blasting through the range quickly but DD was horrendous, to the point of being embarrassing with a passenger.

Scott do you get any peaky resonance from 2.8.4.5k rpm? I know once you get higher the pulses are going to be there but at that RPM its expected.

I wish we could meet up in the Toledo area sometime. I'd like your opinion compared to your lethal exhaust. I don't notice any more vibrations then stock. But it is louder for sure in sport mode. My girl friend has a 2016 Nissan Maxima and she said she notices nothing except it's loud lol.

 

[superman07]

how close are you know to an optimal tune?

 

[stanglife]

It's also possible/actually likely that those dampers are there not to isolate the driver from vibrations but to absorb vibrations that might otherwise crack welds or cause some other durability issue. I can tell you this....especially after watching "A Faster Horse" - Ford doesn't add something that costs even .05 unless it's validated somehow. It's there for a reason.

 

[Voodooo]

how close are you know to an optimal tune?

I decided not to use E85. It's quality And hassle isn't worth it for "me". I'm going to strictly use Sunoco 260gt. I'm going to data log on 260gt and see how it goes.

 

[superman07]

spensive

 

[Hack]

Hack, I'm saying over stock.
I know this is long debated, but no exhaust company that I know of has any way to measure exhaust harmonics. But I can tell you from my own experience from having long tubes on my own car the vibrations are no different. Every car no matter stock or aftermarket will have sound pulses. No way around that with an internal combustion engine. You can add a damper to any exhaust but how does one know if it's helping and if it's placement is helping where the person places it without the proper measurements. Just throwing a stock damper on a long tube header doesn't mean that it's stopping or helping anything. Cobra jet mustangs vibrate ALOT and the seem to do fine. I know that's not a apple to apple comparison though.

http://www.keyence.com/products/mea...-ntkLSe0kn0xnXjl44P5itHcqVVl2leW4ERoCa0Pw_wcB

At work we use a piece of equipment from Keyence to accurately measure small and rapid movements. I'm sure Ford uses something like this with the appropriate data rate. I agree it's a complex issue and I wouldn't expect an aftermarket exhaust company to try to solve it.

I agree with you that the stock vibration damper will work on the stock exhaust but not necessarily on anything else - and that vibration is normal and part of the character of the car we love.

 

[Voodooo]

Put a glass of water in your cup holder with the stock exhaust and watch the water ripples. Then do the same with long tubes lol.

If the S550 had a mid mount exhaust hanger like the fox body mustangs did then I would expect more vibrations or cracked welds. But the S550 exhaust is only supported by the header bolts, and two hangers before the muffler and at the muffler. It's a free span in between. If the exhaust was hung on the trans mount then you would definitely notice more vibrations.

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