Sponsored

Which Long Tube Headers...help

Stuntman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Threads
5
Messages
1,448
Reaction score
488
Location
SoCal
Vehicle(s)
many
Please re-read post #227 in the ARH thread. I mentioned the Kooks temperatures and how I was very interested in a proper layover of your pulls because of how consistent the temps were.... I'll haveto go check out svtforums, unless you have a link.
Sponsored

 

Childs Play

But Wait! There's More!
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Threads
0
Messages
695
Reaction score
252
Location
Houston, TX.
Vehicle(s)
Hyundai Shitbox
Loved Kooks when I had them. However ARH makes a quality product as well and they seem to outperform the Kooks on the Mustang.
 

Voodooo

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Threads
107
Messages
5,821
Reaction score
2,399
Location
SE Michigan
First Name
Scott
Vehicle(s)
Carroll Shelbys Soul Lives Under My GT350 Hood
I'm not knocking kooks as they do make a good product. But I'm glad I chose ARH. Very happy
 

Myshelby3425

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Threads
77
Messages
2,170
Reaction score
555
Location
Miami
Vehicle(s)
2018 GT
Not really when you used two different correction factors. I'd guess your gains are closer to 20whp while the Nick's 30whp gains with HFCs on a Mustang dyno is really impressive but it didn't show the conditions.

I'm looking forward to seeing your proper Watson overlays & other's results of ARH & Kooks.
Go do a search on the current tuned GT350s with AR headers. You keep going back to Voodoos results which aren't even finalized. The 2-3 I've see so far have all been in the same range.
 

Voodooo

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Threads
107
Messages
5,821
Reaction score
2,399
Location
SE Michigan
First Name
Scott
Vehicle(s)
Carroll Shelbys Soul Lives Under My GT350 Hood
Not really when you used two different correction factors. I'd guess your gains are closer to 20whp while the Nick's 30whp gains with HFCs on a Mustang dyno is really impressive but it didn't show the conditions.

I'm looking forward to seeing your proper Watson overlays & other's results of ARH & Kooks.
Well what's more impressive is the ARH made more then kooks either way. Kooks are a 1.75-1.875 step header, ARH are straight 1.875.
You keep saying my gains are 20hp. Which I believe it's 30hp and with a richer tune would result more and it will. But I don't ever see you stating kooks 16 degree cooler temps having anything to do with their 15hp gain. These motors are temp sensitive. Let's see your gt350 dyno results with 15 degree cooler temps.
 

Sponsored

Stuntman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Threads
5
Messages
1,448
Reaction score
488
Location
SoCal
Vehicle(s)
many
Well what's more impressive is the ARH made more then kooks either way. Kooks are a 1.75-1.875 step header, ARH are straight 1.875.
You keep saying my gains are 20hp. Which I believe it's 30hp and with a richer tune would result more and it will. But I don't ever see you stating kooks 16 degree cooler temps having anything to do with their 15hp gain. These motors are temp sensitive. Let's see your gt350 dyno results with 15 degree cooler temps.
So you don't understand the concept of SAE correction factor being a lower # than STD? -and how looking at an SAE baseline and STD post change is highly flawwed and results in an artificially high Delta/difference? If not, there's really nothing more to discuss.

20whp was my guess based off playing around with WinPep and the sae-std difference.

It's also apples : oranges to compare tuned setups vs stock tunes. Yes your setup will make more power tuned. So will Kooks... Yes you had higher but more valid and consistent temps in your runs, which is why i was interested in a proper comparison of your setup. Yes, Kooks has a higher temp baseline & lower post change. While SAE "corrects" for this factor -the whole reason for correction factors, I would agree there is some level of favorism in Kooks non tuned pulls.

I really don't have anything more to say since this conversation has circled a few times now...

Edit - a quick search on svtperformance:

ARH & HFC (w.JLT & Tune): 18.48whp gain over tuned JLT.

http://www.*******************/foru...-GT350-Header-Upgrade&p=15236910#post15236910

There's no pics of the overlay but here's the only 31whp gain I've seen so far: ARH & HFC + JLT + tune vs JLT + tune:

http://www.*******************/forums/showthread.php?1102600-American-Racing-Headers-GT-350/page3

...so for ARH, I've seen 2 dynos with ~20hp gains (un tuned) and 2 with ~30hp gains (tuned & untuned) and only 1 dyno of kooks (un tuned) at 15hp. Has anyone seen any more from either brand beyond these?
 
Last edited:

Voodooo

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Threads
107
Messages
5,821
Reaction score
2,399
Location
SE Michigan
First Name
Scott
Vehicle(s)
Carroll Shelbys Soul Lives Under My GT350 Hood
So you don't understand the concept of SAE correction factor being a lower # than STD? -and how looking at an SAE baseline and STD post change is highly flawwed and results in an artificially high Delta/difference? If not, there's really nothing more to discuss.

20whp was my guess based off playing around with WinPep and the sae-std difference.

It's also apples : oranges to compare tuned setups vs stock tunes. Yes your setup will make more power tuned. So will Kooks... Yes you had higher but more valid and consistent temps in your runs, which is why i was interested in a proper comparison of your setup. Yes, Kooks has a higher temp baseline & lower post change. While SAE "corrects" for this factor -the whole reason for correction factors, I would agree there is some level of favorism in Kooks non tuned pulls.

I really don't have anything more to say since this conversation has circled a few times now...
Yes I know the difference between std and sae. But even when you were shown other stock tune header dyno pulls that shown 29hp pulls you still want to argue the facts.
 

Voodooo

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Threads
107
Messages
5,821
Reaction score
2,399
Location
SE Michigan
First Name
Scott
Vehicle(s)
Carroll Shelbys Soul Lives Under My GT350 Hood
So you don't understand the concept of SAE correction factor being a lower # than STD? -and how looking at an SAE baseline and STD post change is highly flawwed and results in an artificially high Delta/difference? If not, there's really nothing more to discuss.

20whp was my guess based off playing around with WinPep and the sae-std difference.

It's also apples : oranges to compare tuned setups vs stock tunes. Yes your setup will make more power tuned. So will Kooks... Yes you had higher but more valid and consistent temps in your runs, which is why i was interested in a proper comparison of your setup. Yes, Kooks has a higher temp baseline & lower post change. While SAE "corrects" for this factor -the whole reason for correction factors, I would agree there is some level of favorism in Kooks non tuned pulls.

I really don't have anything more to say since this conversation has circled a few times now...

Edit - a quick search on svtperformance:

ARH & HFC (w.JLT & Tune): 18.48whp gain over tuned JLT.

http://www.*******************/foru...-GT350-Header-Upgrade&p=15236910#post15236910

There's no pics of the overlay but here's the only 31whp gain I've seen so far: ARH & HFC + JLT + tune vs JLT + tune:

http://www.*******************/forums/showthread.php?1102600-American-Racing-Headers-GT-350/page3

...so for ARH, I've seen 2 dynos with ~20hp gains (un tuned) and 2 with ~30hp gains (tuned & untuned) and only 1 dyno of kooks (un tuned) at 15hp. Has anyone seen any more from either brand beyond these?
Why don't you do this for all of us. Take your own gt350, buy a set of kooks and a set of ARH and do your own dyno pulls in 2 days. Do base line pulls on the stock system stock tune, then do one brand one day and the other brand the second day, all on stock tune. That's about as accurate as you'll get. It's been proven so far that the ARH system on at least 3 cars makes more hp. It seem your hell bent on proving that one system is better then the other yet you provide no facts. To date we have 1 kooks car and at least 3 cars with ARH. And the numbers with the ARH have proven higher. Even on a stock tune with the ARH I was running lean. Are you aware that others that have done dyno pulls on the voodoo have also reported of a lean afr? Say for example a gt350 with a tune on stock exhaust with say a JLT did a dyno pull and made 470rwhp then installed kooks or ARH and pulled 500rwhp. Will you still say it's not a 30hp increase because it's not stock anymore? Once headers are on its no longer stock anyhow. On the same day i did the ARH dyno pulls I made 484 with the lean stock tune. With the Lund lean tune I made 511rwhp lifting off at 6000 rpm. Since that day I've data logged and have added fuel and timing. When I get the chance to go back to Watson I'll report my results. But next time it won't be on 93 it'll be Sunoco 260GT 100 octane. On another forum they have shown that with 91 made 429.77 then with 93 made 440.42 then Sunoco 260 gtx 98 octane made 456.48 on "stock ford tune". It seems the stock tune is adding timing when it detects higher octane fuel.
 
Last edited:

Myshelby3425

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Threads
77
Messages
2,170
Reaction score
555
Location
Miami
Vehicle(s)
2018 GT
Why don't you do this for all of us. Take your own gt350, buy a set of kooks and a set of ARH and do your own dyno pulls in 2 days. Do base line pulls on the stock system stock tune, then do one brand one day and the other brand the second day, all on stock tune. That's about as accurate as you'll get. It's been proven so far that the ARH system on at least 3 cars makes more hp. It seem your hell bent on proving that one system is better then the other yet you provide no facts. To date we have 1 kooks car and at least 3 cars with ARH. And the numbers with the ARH have proven higher. Even on a stock tune with the ARH I was running lean. Are you aware that others that have done dyno pulls on the voodoo have also reported of a lean afr? Say for example a gt350 with a tune on stock exhaust with say a JLT did a dyno pull and made 470rwhp then installed kooks or ARH and pulled 500rwhp. Will you still say it's not a 30hp increase because it's not stock anymore? Once headers are on its no longer stock anyhow. On the same day i did the ARH dyno pulls I made 484 with the lean stock tune. With the Lund lean tune I made 511rwhp lifting off at 6000 rpm. Since that day I've data logged and have added fuel and timing. When I get the chance to go back to Watson I'll report my results. But next time it won't be on 93 it'll be Sunoco 260GT 100 octane. On another forum they have shown that with 91 made 429.77 then with 93 made 440.42 then Sunoco 260 gtx 98 octane made 456.48 on "stock ford tune". It seems the stock tune is adding timing when it detects higher octane fuel.
Just don't respond anymore.. Not worth the time.
 

superman07

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Threads
16
Messages
1,437
Reaction score
549
Location
columbus ohio
Vehicle(s)
2016 gt350
Indeed.

for me it will be one maybe 2 factors that will make me choose one over the other. Max HP isn't as important to me especially when its within margin for temp / dyno variation.

1. Which system provides the most usable improvement on the car including torque curve on best available tune with supplied cats across common octanes with N-Guage. if torque curves equal then max hp will win.

2. system must provide a driveable and vibration free experience. I hope to see Scott's car at some point as the off road pipes have left a bad taste in my mouth. As Scott mentions the ARH are thicker and that might help them quit a bit. I would still consider tacking on the original mass dampeners for shits and giggles.

Arguing over 5-10 hp across different dynos on different days in different conditions is a waste of time. Never seen someone so hot to shit on someone elses sandwich.
 

Sponsored

superman07

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Threads
16
Messages
1,437
Reaction score
549
Location
columbus ohio
Vehicle(s)
2016 gt350
Just read more of this, Anyone comparing un-tuned dynos like they mean much is an idiot. Knowing they can run lean, adding these should be considered a 2 part process. Jesus Christ. Its like basing your logic on a known bad tune, considering the stock tune was designed for the factory setup.

Show me the fully tuned Kooks vs fully tuned ARH same day dame dyno, then Ill give a shit.
 

superman07

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Threads
16
Messages
1,437
Reaction score
549
Location
columbus ohio
Vehicle(s)
2016 gt350
I thought for sure the kooks had a dyno recorded tuned, it was just not usable as it was a different dyno.
 

stanglife

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Threads
180
Messages
7,046
Reaction score
5,785
Location
FL
First Name
Jeff
Vehicle(s)
1993 Coyote Coupe
So you don't understand the concept of SAE correction factor being a lower # than STD? -and how looking at an SAE baseline and STD post change is highly flawwed and results in an artificially high Delta/difference? If not, there's really nothing more to discuss.

20whp was my guess based off playing around with WinPep and the sae-std difference.

It's also apples : oranges to compare tuned setups vs stock tunes. Yes your setup will make more power tuned. So will Kooks... Yes you had higher but more valid and consistent temps in your runs, which is why i was interested in a proper comparison of your setup. Yes, Kooks has a higher temp baseline & lower post change. While SAE "corrects" for this factor -the whole reason for correction factors, I would agree there is some level of favorism in Kooks non tuned pulls.

I really don't have anything more to say since this conversation has circled a few times now...

Edit - a quick search on svtperformance:

ARH & HFC (w.JLT & Tune): 18.48whp gain over tuned JLT.

http://www.*******************/foru...-GT350-Header-Upgrade&p=15236910#post15236910

There's no pics of the overlay but here's the only 31whp gain I've seen so far: ARH & HFC + JLT + tune vs JLT + tune:

http://www.*******************/forums/showthread.php?1102600-American-Racing-Headers-GT-350/page3

...so for ARH, I've seen 2 dynos with ~20hp gains (un tuned) and 2 with ~30hp gains (tuned & untuned) and only 1 dyno of kooks (un tuned) at 15hp. Has anyone seen any more from either brand beyond these?
You're about the science, not the show-boating, and I like it - just for the record. ^^All this other BS wouldn't fly on corner-carvers, for example - the forum members there ONLY do science.
 

16s550

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Threads
76
Messages
1,448
Reaction score
207
Location
Bay area
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT M6 performance pack, whipple charged
Are the bbks any good?
 

Stuntman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Threads
5
Messages
1,448
Reaction score
488
Location
SoCal
Vehicle(s)
many
You're about the science, not the show-boating, and I like it - just for the record. ^^All this other BS wouldn't fly on corner-carvers, for example - the forum members there ONLY do science.
I guess you're the only person who 'gets it'. There seems to be a ton of delusional fanboys on this thread who don't. I really don't care which brand is better, I just care about proper comparisons and test procedures. So far there is only 1 Kooks data point and a bunch of ARH that show a greater power increase, even when analyzed properly. Pointing out the fact that all ARH's so far have made more than Kooks, and Voodoo's own test conditions were the most consistent thus-far (reason for wanting to see a proper comparison) makes me anti-ARH? :headbonk:

But you can't:

-Compare SAE to STD (especially with the SAE as a baseline)
-Compare a stock tune base line vs. optimized tune for the header (there's a 18hp ARH increase from a optimized JLT intake tune and tuned ARH which is a proper A-B).
-Compare different octanes of fuel.

Voodoos car made 30hp from the headers when comparing an SAE baseline to STD post-header. That's going to be a ~20hp increase when using the same correction factors. Changing octane and optimizing the tune will net 10-20hp i'd guess, and it would be far from correct to claim a 40-50hp increase "From the headers alone" based on an SAE baseline on 93 to a STD post-header 100 octane run tuned for that fuel. But at this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes those claims in the future.

Have ARH's made 30hp? YES. 2 of them. Voodoo probably didn't. All facts.

There's really not much more to say and I think i'm done with this thread.
Sponsored

 
 








Top