Wet Driving

[Norm Peterson]

I don't get why people bother turning off driving aids. I get people turn off aids in situational driving. Say, if you want to purposely throw the back end out. But normal driving, especially inclement weather, for all of humanity, keep the damn aids on. I don't care how good you think you are, you aren't better than a computer. Trust me.

If you have the discipline to stay well within the lowest limit (your skill, car capabilities, road conditions) you won't ever use the computer. How do you think people like me (first licensed before you could buy any year Mustang) managed to get this far with the good driving record I've managed to establish and keep?

Are you somehow implying that my '08, which does not have stability control technology and whose TC is utterly worthless, should not be driven on the public streets?

But obviously you've never been in a situation where some nanny or other managed to either intervene way too early or flat-out got it wrong. I have. Even ABS - probably the most mature nanny of the whole bunch - doesn't cope well with certain situations.

TC off is one way of remaining aware of how much or how little grip you have to work with, and experiencing a little tire spin starting from a full stop is your cue to adjust the rest of your driving accordingly. IOW, "feeling the tires", as was mentioned earlier. Guess what - you end up learning how to keep your driving below the threshhold where the others get interested. Better than inadvertently teaching yourself to drive up against those threshholds and finding a situation that's beyond what even the nannies can correct for.


Just because . . . I wasn't going to link these yet again, but you've talked me into it. No TC, no Advancetrak, no speed limits, and 100% WOT in 3rd gear at times. The driving just wasn't that tense.

Twitches in the wet can be caught without any electronic assistance whatsoever. Keep in mind that at a wet track day you'd be driving considerably harder than you would on the streets to get to it. Should be, that is.



In heavy rain and standing water where the hydroplaning potential is higher?




Somewhere I've got more, where much of the time I'm carrying on a conversation with an instructor sitting right seat. At one of my first track days actually.


Norm

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[NoVaGT]

:lol::lol:

Did I post that here?

Did you just happen to grab that pic off the net? Or are you aware that was actually my very first car?

 

[Ebm]

First; Bullshit. And I say that with all due respect.

Second; People will never learn how to actually drive their cars, if they let computers do it for them.

Good Lord, how did anyone make it through the 50s & 60s with big power and absolutely shit tires, in all sorts of weather conditions? Dunno, must have been magic, pixie dust or something.

Third; The systems real race cars use are vastly better than what is on our cars. That's why racers will use them; they are engineered and designed for the track.

Our systems are jack-of-all-trade systems, that in reality suck.

I hate this PC push for lowest-common-denominator everything attitude. No one is pushed, no one is challenged, no one is to learn anything.

Uh... yeah... That is what's currently happening. Computers have been in cars since the invention of the ECU. Over the decades, more computers have been added over time. What has this done? Ultimately, it has made the modern automobile more powerful, more efficient, and it has added a better driving experience. The computer in your car is doing most of the work. And as we know, machines have a faster reaction time than humans do. This is evident in the A10 coming out versus a manual. The TCS, SCS, and ABS aren't the crap they used to be. They are actually very intelligent these days. But in the end, it won't matter. Pretty soon the computer will control the whole car.

Also, the systems race cars use aren't better. They are the same systems found in street cars, but just with different settings configured.

 

[Ebm]

.

If you have the discipline to stay well within the lowest limit (your skill, car capabilities, road conditions) you won't ever use the computer. How do you think people like me (first licensed before you could buy any year Mustang) managed to get this far with the good driving record I've managed to establish and keep?

Are you somehow implying that my '08, which does not have stability control technology and whose TC is utterly worthless, should not be driven on the public streets?

But obviously you've never been in a situation where some nanny or other managed to either intervene way too early or flat-out got it wrong. I have. Even ABS - probably the most mature nanny of the whole bunch - doesn't cope well with certain situations.

TC off is one way of remaining aware of how much or how little grip you have to work with, and experiencing a little tire spin starting from a full stop is your cue to adjust the rest of your driving accordingly. IOW, "feeling the tires", as was mentioned earlier. Guess what - you end up learning how to keep your driving below the threshhold where the others get interested. Better than inadvertently teaching yourself to drive up against those threshholds and finding a situation that's beyond what even the nannies can correct for.


Just because . . . I wasn't going to link these yet again, but you've talked me into it. No TC, no Advancetrak, no speed limits, and 100% WOT in 3rd gear at times. The driving just wasn't that tense.

Twitches in the wet can be caught without any electronic assistance whatsoever. Keep in mind that at a wet track day you'd be driving considerably harder than you would on the streets to get to it. Should be, that is.



In heavy rain and standing water where the hydroplaning potential is higher?




Somewhere I've got more, where much of the time I'm carrying on a conversation with an instructor sitting right seat. At one of my first track days actually.


Norm

Videos aren't working and I'm too lazy to go to the YouTube website. ;)

I wasn't implying you should park your car and never drive it again. I was saying if you have driving aids on your car, leave them on. They might save you one day since your reaction time isn't as good as the aids reaction time. I'd bet more often than not, a person with aids will put down a better time than that same person without aids. Mainly because very few people can find the edge of the limit of their car.

 

[NoVaGT]

Videos aren't working and I'm too lazy to go to the YouTube website. ;)

I wasn't implying you should park your car and never drive it again. I was saying if you have driving aids on your car, leave them on. They might save you one day since your reaction time isn't as good as the aids reaction time. I'd bet more often than not, a person with aids will put down a better time than that same person without aids. Mainly because very few people can find the edge of the limit of their car.

You're faaaar too impressed with "aids".

They cut power, apply brakes, and in general kill the fun. It's terrible. Kills the job and thrill of driving.

They wear the hell out of your brakes, too.

 

[Ebm]

.

You're faaaar too impressed with "aids".

They cut power, apply brakes, and in general kill the fun. It's terrible. Kills the job and thrill of driving.

They wear the hell out of your brakes, too.

It's what I grew up on? :shrug:

I work with technology all day long. I guess sometimes I trust technology a bit too much. We are on opposite extremes my friend. You and Norm seem to hate all the technology in cars now. You like the stripped-down, no frills, driving experience. I enjoy all the new tech that goes into cars. It might make you feel less connected to the road, but I don't feel the same way. Guess it boils down to two different generations. You guys are a lot older and grew up in a different time. I'm just a millennial.

 

[NoVaGT]

It's what I grew up on? :shrug:

I work with technology all day long. I guess sometimes I trust technology a bit too much. We are on opposite extremes my friend. You and Norm seem to hate all the technology in cars now. You like the stripped-down, no frills, driving experience. I enjoy all the new tech that goes into cars. It might make you feel less connected to the road, but I don't feel the same way. Guess it boils down to two different generations. You guys are a lot older and grew up in a different time. I'm just a millennial.

You grasp that at certain times, in certain fashions, you're not really making the difference behind the wheel?

I don't want a layer of electronic interference between myself and the road. I want to control and dictate what happens, without my car trying to "help".

Plus, relying on the "aids" will give one a false sense of security, and a lack of knowledge and understanding of their car and it's behavior at and past the limits of grip. Then, you'll drive too fast because you think the "aids" will save you, and you'll die because you don't know what to do, because you've never tried to handle things yourself.

And I'm not that old, ya little shit.:lol::lol:

 

[BmacIL]

Videos aren't working and I'm too lazy to go to the YouTube website. ;)

I wasn't implying you should park your car and never drive it again. I was saying if you have driving aids on your car, leave them on. They might save you one day since your reaction time isn't as good as the aids reaction time. I'd bet more often than not, a person with aids will put down a better time than that same person without aids. Mainly because very few people can find the edge of the limit of their car.

Not these aids. Go give it a shot and find out. They "save" you, but slow you down and prevent you from exercising control. As said, they cut power and use the brakes HARD to get the car in line. Finding the limit is easy, keeping it there is the tough part, and AdvanceTrac in this car doesn't particularly like you going there at all, the way it's calibrated.

I'm just a millennial too, technically (I'm 30, nearly 31). I enjoy any new tech that doesn't sanitize the car. I don't find AdvanceTrac does that, it just reins in the car for people with little experience, and can be turned off . The EPAS is a bit numbing, but much better than a lot of other executions of it in the industry. I've purposely made my car more raw, providing more feedback and information to me as the driver, but without making it harsh like a full-on racecar. I don't trust technology like you, but also don't distrust it like say, Norm does, perhaps. It's not a matter of trust, though, it's more about knowing a pretty good deal about vehicle engineering as a whole, and knowing the limits of calibrated systems, and the conflicts between performance and comfort that goes into every production vehicle. The TC/SC systems are first and foremost setup to protect for the lowest common denominator. A capable driver can easily exceed the control of those systems.

 

[NoVaGT]

 

[terryz]

Even with the stock A/S tires, I feel the mustang is no less capable than the average cars on the road (think of mid-2000 Camry etc). If other drivers can manage it, why cannot you?

Just don't be a hero all the time, ego is the largest enemy.

 

[chedder]

Tires, tires, tires. Here in Seattle area we get a lot of rain days, sometimes fish migrate across the track (LOL). Anyway, I run Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires and as long as they are warmed up speed is no issue. I can drive my GT at 125mph in the rain no sweat with TC off or the same with the nannies off. Corners are different, nannies off quicker.

 

[CompOface]

It's what I grew up on? :shrug:

I work with technology all day long. I guess sometimes I trust technology a bit too much. We are on opposite extremes my friend. You and Norm seem to hate all the technology in cars now. You like the stripped-down, no frills, driving experience. I enjoy all the new tech that goes into cars. It might make you feel less connected to the road, but I don't feel the same way. Guess it boils down to two different generations. You guys are a lot older and grew up in a different time. I'm just a millennial.

This is not a generation thing, its a person by person thing. I'm (unfortunately) a millennial and I can't stand the continued additions of electronic nannies. Seems like fewer and fewer people can actually drive any more, and to make it worst they prefer the car make all the corrections instead of learning how to handle what they have. It's not a love of technology, its the love of being lazy or being able to dedicate your focus to texting/checking facebook/insert your least favorite typical millennial behavior here.

My first car, 1973 240Z. I still have it and you can probably guess no nannies there. Even drove it in the wet and always made it back in one piece. Believe me that car can barely take a heavy gust of wind, they fold like tin cans in a crash. Maybe that was the motivation I needed to learn how to drive because no computer was going to "save" me if I over drove the car or the conditions. I cut my teeth on that car and enjoyed every single minute of it!

Try it some time.... actually driving a car.... you might like it, and you might learn something in the process.

 

[whalesalad]

I've never had issues. I feel like driving is common sense... it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to adapt your behavior to road conditions.

I used the snow/rain mode once in a very thick snow that hadn't been plowed yet. I find it to be annoying.

 

[DukeGaGa]

Just want to say, on the track I drive without any of those aids, but on a public road, if there're aids available on the car, I use them since I want to relax a bit while I'm not racing. And it's a fact that the reaction time is slower when people are relaxed, so I let the tech help me as much as it can.

 

[airfuel]

I'm lucky that my friends and I spent many hours playing with cars in large snowy parking lots!

Hours of drifting, spinning, getting stuck and wearing out my moms 1974 Volvo!
What fun and learned much about car control.

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