Wet Driving

[Norm Peterson]

Uh... yeah... That is what's currently happening. Computers have been in cars since the invention of the ECU. Over the decades, more computers have been added over time. What has this done? Ultimately, it has made the modern automobile more powerful

Agreed

, more efficient

Agreed, and I'll add 'cleaner' here.

, and it has added a better driving experience. The computer in your car is doing most of the work.

If you fully understood the satisfaction that is available from doing the relatively simple tasks that make up driving and doing them well, you would not be so willing to give any of that up to a computer or try to make the absurd claim that doing so makes for a better driving experience.

And as we know, machines have a faster reaction time than humans do.

Faster reaction time is irrelevant when you can stay below the point where you're relying solely on a near-zero reaction time. If you can't do this, why can't you? Are you not looking far enough ahead to see what's developing? Are you insensitive to the changes in "feel" as tire grip passes through the transition from fully stuck down/linear?

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that none of these assistances can create more tire grip than physically exists. Like it or not, these nannies still have their limits, so they're not the infallible saviors you're trying to make them out to be. I even know of one situation that could trip some nanny into actually causing a crash if it were to use any of the brakes at all (been through it).

This is evident in the A10 coming out versus a manual. The TCS, SCS, and ABS aren't the crap they used to be. They are actually very intelligent these days. But in the end, it won't matter. Pretty soon the computer will control the whole car.

And still no better than their progamming, which can't know everything about every possible situation in real time. And still unnecessary if the driver has the chops to stay within the limits of what he can make the car do under the conditions of the moment.

A nanny that's never called upon to do its thing doesn't improve things over not being there at all. Not one bit.


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

Videos aren't working and I'm too lazy to go to the YouTube website. ;)

Just click on the blue hot links with the "watch on youtube" label.

Your computer will do the rest so you don't have to . . . just don't try to roll having a better browsing experience over to what makes for a better driving experience, m'kay?


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's what I grew up on? :shrug:

I work with technology all day long. I guess sometimes I trust technology a bit too much. We are on opposite extremes my friend. You and Norm seem to hate all the technology in cars now. You like the stripped-down, no frills, driving experience. I enjoy all the new tech that goes into cars. It might make you feel less connected to the road, but I don't feel the same way. Guess it boils down to two different generations. You guys are a lot older and grew up in a different time. I'm just a millennial.

I've posted before a number of times that I fully appreciate certain technologies - electronic fuel injection in particular. I even swapped an aftermarket multiport EFI system onto a car that was originally carbureted. That's fine, because it does the kinds of thing that a human simply can't keep up with in real time.

What I don't want from technology is to be relegated to co-driver status (or lower, as keeps being threatened). Maybe if my driving record or my wife's included occasional lapses in car control over the years I'd feel somewhat differently. But I've got to go back over 40 years to find even a minor one of mine (and my wife who's only been licensed since 1970 doesn't have any at all). Keep in mind that it wasn't until 2010 that we even owned a car with stability control (which I usually turn off, and yes there's a story that fits with what Bmac posted earlier today), so our driving records are almost entirely by our own efforts and skill alone.

We did grow up in an environment where you either accepted the associated risks or you simply didn't do whatever it was. Not just with respect to driving, either. Safety was mostly what you practiced by yourself, for yourself, after being briefed by parents or others who'd been through various things. AKA, part of what was called "common sense" back then. You understood the concept of going out on a limb without a safety net underneath you . . . literally as well as figuratively.

The industry that now wants to protect you from the sun and everything underneath it (except that industry itself) was in its infancy.


Perhaps too, if you're oriented strongly enough toward the corner-carving side of the automotive hobby, you're more aware of what it takes to operate a vehicle closer to all of its limits and less likely to become upset or panicky by having to do so.


Norm

 

[BmacIL]

I've posted before a number of times that I fully appreciate certain technologies - electronic fuel injection in particular. I even swapped an aftermarket multiport EFI system onto a car that was originally carbureted. That's fine, because it does the kinds of thing that a human simply can't keep up with in real time.

What I don't want from technology is to be relegated to co-driver status (or lower, as keeps being threatened). Maybe if my driving record or my wife's included occasional lapses in car control over the years I'd feel somewhat differently. But I've got to go back over 40 years to find even a minor one of mine (and my wife who's only been licensed since 1970 doesn't have any at all). Keep in mind that it wasn't until 2010 that we even owned a car with stability control (which I usually turn off, and yes there's a story that fits with what Bmac posted earlier today), so our driving records are almost entirely by our own efforts and skill alone.

We did grow up in an environment where you either accepted the associated risks or you simply didn't do whatever it was. Not just with respect to driving, either. Safety was mostly what you practiced by yourself, for yourself, after being briefed by parents or others who'd been through various things. AKA, part of what was called "common sense" back then. You understood the concept of going out on a limb without a safety net underneath you . . . literally as well as figuratively.

The industry that now wants to protect you from the sun and everything underneath it (except that industry itself) was in its infancy.


Perhaps too, if you're oriented strongly enough toward the corner-carving side of the automotive hobby, you're more aware of what it takes to operate a vehicle closer to all of its limits and less likely to become upset or panicky by having to do so.


Norm

 

[panhandler62]

Define "too hard" . . . like how far as a percentage of wide open do you think you're stepping into it?

What gear are you driving around in when it feels like this? Manual or automatic? If automatic, are you kicking it down a gear with your throttle foot? OE or aftermarket tune?


None of my cars has ever had "drive modes". But I do know what throttle response that's too fast for certain driving conditions feels like and the extra difficulty it adds. You can teach your right foot to be 'smarter', but this is one of my gripes about tunes that are all about snappy throttle response.


Norm

It's a 2016 Ecoboost convertible with an auto. I've upgraded the stereo, but not the performance (I don't want to mess with the factory warranty... probably play with tunes and such later on) and it has the Good Years on it. I've never actually used the "snow mode" but I haven't had occasion to turn the normal traction control off either.

I don't find it unmanageable (some of the posts on this thread seem tone deaf to the fact that I hoped for something light hearted here.) I have noticed that when it rains, and particularly at intersections (where older cars tend to sit and drip for us all) that the rear breaks lose at around 15 to 20% throttle. You have to ease into significantly to keep things in check (similar to driving a single cab, long bed pickup).

I have not driven a GT of this generation but just assumed that this impact is even more significant in a car with a bit more than 100 hp more than mine, so I was curious what people's reactions were.

 

[RaceRed17]

It's a 2016 Ecoboost convertible with an auto. I've upgraded the stereo, but not the performance (I don't want to mess with the factory warranty... probably play with tunes and such later on) and it has the Good Years on it. I've never actually used the "snow mode" but I haven't had occasion to turn the normal traction control off either.

I don't find it unmanageable (some of the posts on this thread seem tone deaf to the fact that I hoped for something light hearted here.) I have noticed that when it rains, and particularly at intersections (where older cars tend to sit and drip for us all) that the rear breaks lose at around 15 to 20% throttle. You have to ease into significantly to keep things in check (similar to driving a single cab, long bed pickup).

I have not driven a GT of this generation but just assumed that this impact is even more significant in a car with a bit more than 100 hp more than mine, so I was curious what people's reactions were.

I have a 17 GT PP and last December I had a few scares where the stock Pirelli would tires cut loose when taking turns or shifting under moderate acceleration. These were not issues in 60+ degree wet weather. The biggest issue was the temperature drop and summer tire combo.

As someone else stated, I switched to Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 plus and they feel MUCH better in wet weather in general. I still switch lanes very carefully in heavy downpours.

 

[mustang1]

... I have noticed that when it rains, and particularly at intersections (where older cars tend to sit and drip for us all) that the rear breaks lose at around 15 to 20% throttle. You have to ease into significantly to keep things in check (similar to driving a single cab, long bed pickup).

road pollution. If you can spin the tires, your braking distance has increased as well. Best not to drive when it first starts raining if you can help it.

I have a 17 GT PP and last December I had a few scares where the stock Pirelli would tires cut loose when taking turns or shifting under moderate acceleration. These were not issues in 60+ degree wet weather. The biggest issue was the temperature drop and summer tire combo.

As someone else stated, I switched to Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 plus and they feel MUCH better in wet weather in general. I still switch lanes very carefully in heavy downpours.

running summer tires in winter is a different topic.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's a 2016 Ecoboost convertible with an auto. I've upgraded the stereo, but not the performance (I don't want to mess with the factory warranty... probably play with tunes and such later on) and it has the Good Years on it. I've never actually used the "snow mode" but I haven't had occasion to turn the normal traction control off either.

So is it downshifting on you or coming on-boost too rapidly? I'm looking for reasons other than a too-eager right foot here.

I don't find it unmanageable (some of the posts on this thread seem tone deaf to the fact that I hoped for something light hearted here.) I have noticed that when it rains, and particularly at intersections (where older cars tend to sit and drip for us all) that the rear breaks lose at around 15 to 20% throttle.

This is the internet, where questions and thoughts can only be taken literally from what's written. What isn't written, the rest of us cannot know.

You have to ease into significantly to keep things in check (similar to driving a single cab, long bed pickup).

And this is a mystery because???

Cars that were capable of 14-second (or quicker) ETs at the dragstrip have always been subject to fishtailing in the wet under power. I know of no recent revisions to the laws of physics that could have changed that, and even TC has its limits (my own car's TC is utterly worthless). So I guess there are times and places where you still have to learn to be gentle with the throttle all by yourself, like those of us who were driving in the 1960's and 1970's (before TC) had no choice about having to do.

If you're snapping the pedal straight down to 15% - 20% in the wet and the rear is getting a bit loose, you're still using the throttle too much like "light switch mode", and which is still too crude as far as your car's current configuration is concerned. Learn to use all of the smaller throttle percentages and how to use them more gradually. Smoothness 'wins' in the wet.

I have not driven a GT of this generation but just assumed that this impact is even more significant in a car with a bit more than 100 hp more than mine, so I was curious what people's reactions were.

Peak power isn't the problem. It's how much torque you've got down low, times whatever transmission and axle gearing, times whatever stall ratio your transmission's torque converter is multiplying crankshaft torque by at the instant you start to spin the drive tires. Keep in mind that under conditions where the torque converter is multiplying torque it is also allowing the engine to spin up a little higher into its torque curve where more crankshaft torque lives.


Norm

 

[Hack]

I enjoy the debate about driver's aids, but I once or twice have been in a situation where I would have crashed without them. I don't agree at all with those that don't use them or want to always turn them off. Frankly, I don't even understand their perspective. Up until a few years ago I drove hot-rodded Fox Mustangs year 'round, so I know how to drive a car with no aids. Just because I can do it doesn't mean I want to. I don't really enjoy the feeling of being puckered non-stop for 20-40 minutes each way during my daily commute.

No matter how good a driver you are, you can't apply a brake on just one wheel and straighten out the car.

Traction doesn't always change gradually from good to poor so that you can pay attention and slow down.

Black ice is not always obvious.

I don't have the patience to drive so slowly that I will never be in a situation where I am traveling faster than I should for the available traction.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I enjoy the debate about driver's aids, but I once or twice have been in a situation where I would have crashed without them. I don't agree at all with those that don't use them or want to always turn them off.

Sounds like you've never had them act when not needed - or worse, acted when doing so was the wrong thing. While the latter situations are fairly rare they do occur.

If I was to count up on my fingers the number of times I'd ever invoked ABS on the street (starting in 2001 with our first ABS-equipped car), I'd still have fingers left over on the first hand. And none of those were truly necessary, in at least two of those cases I was braking harder than necessary in the wet just to see what would happen. The only time I've ever had ESC intervene (wife's Subie), it happened way earlier than necessary on a moderately enthusiastic run through a highway interchange ramp. Generally benign, but frustrating and entirely needless, so when I'm driving I shut it off.

Frankly, I don't even understand their perspective. Up until a few years ago I drove hot-rodded Fox Mustangs year 'round, so I know how to drive a car with no aids. Just because I can do it doesn't mean I want to.

I don't really enjoy the feeling of being puckered non-stop for 20-40 minutes each way during my daily commute.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Fox-body starts out not being all that high on any cornering & handling scale and is relatively easy to "get away from you" on throttle. And when hotrodded - I'm assuming for the straight line stuff here - its directional stability and control capabilities are compromised still further.

Chances are it was the wrong kind of car/build for the conditions you should fully expect to experience in your part of the country. A Probe would have been better for sure (until about 3 years ago we had one of that car's Mazda cousins in V6/5MT trim).

No matter how good a driver you are, you can't apply a brake on just one wheel and straighten out the car.

I don't think I've ever had a situation where the ability to brake only one or two of the wheels would have made any difference over braking all four. I understand this and how it works, but I just don't seem to get into such situations.

Traction doesn't always change gradually from good to poor so that you can pay attention and slow down.

Black ice is not always obvious.

No, it's not. And when all four tires are on that stuff the nannies are just as helpless as you are. Maybe even more so. Been there (and crashed, not quite 51 years ago).

Coolant on the track is pretty sudden and not always obvious either, and I've encountered a little of that, too. Under near-1g cornering and again shortly after that under a considerable amount of throttle.

I don't have the patience to drive so slowly that I will never be in a situation where I am traveling faster than I should for the available traction.

This is coming from straight-line Fox-body experience, right? The sort of throttle (and braking) modulation you learn over on the corner-carving side of the automotive hobby translates directly to your ability to deal with low-grip driving in general. At an absolute minimum your panic reaction starts much later, you're less tense, and more focused on doing what you need to be doing. Seems that simple to me, anyway, and it still seems to work.


And like I've said more than once and in more places than just here, if my experience was less satisfactory than it has been I might see this whole nanny-thing differently.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Spot on.

I'll requote 'cos it's good..

I don't have the patience to drive so slowly that I will never be in a situation where I am traveling faster than I should for the available traction.

Most times in the rain at least, the posted speed limits and curve advisories are good enough guidelines. Assuming that your car and particularly its tires and brakes are in good condition (if they aren't, why aren't they?).

For anything worse you need to be parking your impatience and driving enough slower than that.

I dare you to requote this . . .
The nannies aren't there to let you keep on driving the same way you would under better conditions, so don't use them that way.


Norm

 

[NoVaGT]

To be blunt;

The nannies are there to stop bad drivers from killing themselves and others. However, there are limits to what they can do.

 

[Hashbrownn]

I've never had issues. I feel like driving is common sense... it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to adapt your behavior to road conditions.

I used the snow/rain mode once in a very thick snow that hadn't been plowed yet. I find it to be annoying.

I've learned that the Common Sense is not so Common.
The world is DOOMED :headbonk:

 

[HoldMyBeer]

I've learned that the Common Sense is not so Common.
The world is DOOMED :headbonk:

What he said.

The more I drive, the more I see things that make me weep for the future lol. :headbonk::headbonk:

 

[seth21w]

This isn't some groundbreaking topic...

I'm just curious - You GT (and beyond) folks;
How do you keep things glued to the ground when it's wet outside?

My turbo is as nervous as a hootchie in church if I even *look* at the throttle too hard when the road is wet. That makes me wonder how much the V8s need to be feather-footed when the ground is wet.

Do you guys use the "snow mode" to keep things in check or just exercise moderation?

Mine has to be feather footed when its dry coming from a stop and turning sharp, those stock pirellis are slick.

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