Voodoo Theory

[Red]

Yes, but not much. The Coyote is slightly under-square at 0.995 (92.2 mm bore, 92.7 stroke) while 94.0/92.7 is slightly over-square at 1.014. What are you getting at wrt bore/stroke?

On edit: Thanks for the information TTH. Very interesting to hear.

Sponsored

 

[TearTheHorizon]

Rpm is easier to achieve with higher bore as opposed to stroke.
I understand it isnt as simple as just shifting the ratio. But a thought none-the-less.

 

[Falc'man]

Thanks TTH. Not being argumentative at all, just asking a question: Aren't the spray bore blocks delivered to the niche line? Does the niche line actually perform the PTWA? I thought it was performed elsewhere; could certainly be wrong.

They do it in Germany.

 

[Red]

Right, all things being equal. Ultimately all boils down to piston speeds, again. Shorter strokes can rev higher.

Time for the rack for this old fart... later.

 

[Red]

They do it in Germany.

Yeah, I'd read that somewhere, Falc'man. Thanks for verifying.

 

[Falc'man]

Yeah, I'd read that somewhere, Falc'man. Thanks for verifying.

You're welcome, Red. Love your posts by the way, keep'em coming.

 

[thePill]

I could also be wrong, I was passed a small bit of info, and made an educated guess based on that. I'll remove that bit from my post to reduce confusion.

Pill, the voodoo is 5.2 liters as it sits right now. They may change that due to the current issues with the motor holding together.

Also, by boring to 5.2 don't you shift the bore/stroke ratio in favor of bore? Considering the 5.0 coyote is square iirc.

True, just spraying the bore will increase the bore and bore only.

If the Voodoo is being done right AND it is in fact a flat plane crank, this is what needs to be done.

You cannot just apply PTWA to the block like the Condor/Trinity. Even a 5 liter flat plane with produce a large amount of vibration. Ford has an opportunity to do a FPC V8 with the Coyote. The engine block would have to be re-casted with thicker cylinder walls. I will do some math later and post it here. As Ford cast a new Coyote with thinker walls, they could also increase the size of the cylinder wall cooling passages.

This smaller bore Coyote would also use a smaller stroke (keeping it square) and limiting the vibration.

I say... 4.4... but wouldn't be completely upset with a 4.0 liter V8 with 555hp@9800rpm... 405tq probably :( but for the circuit and series, forget about it...

 

[thePill]

Working from the Coyote down (the only way Ford can do a FPC V8 cheap), you would have to take the 5.0's bore (3.629) down to a 3.589 inch bore. The stroke could range in the 3.569-3.576.

We have main goals here...

Keep it square (within 0.020)
Keep it Bore over Stroke
Keep it under 5 liters (4.7)
Get a 289ci V8 for the GT350.

Like I said, the Voodoo can share the 'Yote's TiVCT, Block, Heads... to bring cost down. It would be a totally new spin on a competition ready, FP289, with new DI (eventual trickles to the 'Yote) all while cost are absorbed through a high volume Coyote. Oh what a GT350 that would be...

 

[pacettr]

I could also be wrong, I was passed a small bit of info, and made an educated guess based on that. I'll remove that bit from my post to reduce confusion.

Pill, the voodoo is 5.2 liters as it sits right now. They may change that due to the current issues with the motor holding together.

Also, by boring to 5.2 don't you shift the bore/stroke ratio in favor of bore? Considering the 5.0 coyote is square iirc.

Assuming this is accurate, why does everyone keep trying to make their own "imaginary" engine.

We started with 2 rumors; 5.2 and FPC


We've all but established the displacement and how it is derived. We know the new Coyote has better heads, cams, etc, allowing for more theoretical power due to advantages listed in the very first post of this thread.

I'm not an ME, but even if we assume that an FPC v8 larger than 5.0 liters is IMPOSSIBLE, we have no reason to think there is anything smaller being developed. So IMO, either Ford engineers think they can pull off a 5.2 FPC, or FPC was an early design idea that has been scrapped likely due to development costs and/or their ability to achieve their goals with the more traditional setup.


Time will obviously tell, and for all I know they could be testing 10 different displacements, but given the rumors and existing knowledge base, I think it unlikely.

 

[Johnb-5.0]

Reducing the bore size = less valve area.

 

[Grimace427]

Like I said, the Voodoo can share the 'Yote's TiVCT, Block, Heads... to bring cost down. It would be a totally new spin on a competition ready, FP289, with new DI (eventual trickles to the 'Yote) all while cost are absorbed through a high volume Coyote. Oh what a GT350 that would be...

It would be a very loud, torqueless engine in an overweight(for the powerband) body. That would be cool for a small supercar following the lines of the Ford GT but not for the Mustang IMO.

Assuming this is accurate, why does everyone keep trying to make their own "imaginary" engine.

We started with 2 rumors; 5.2 and FPC


We've all but established the displacement and how it is derived. We know the new Coyote has better heads, cams, etc, allowing for more theoretical power due to advantages listed in the very first post of this thread.

I'm not an ME, but even if we assume that an FPC v8 larger than 5.0 liters is IMPOSSIBLE, we have no reason to think there is anything smaller being developed. So IMO, either Ford engineers think they can pull off a 5.2 FPC, or FPC was an early design idea that has been scrapped likely due to development costs and/or their ability to achieve their goals with the more traditional setup.

The heads/cams on the S550 Coyote have existed in the FRPP parts bin for a few years, seeing these little changes in the new car seems like a very logical step for Ford's Mustang team. It would make just as much sense if the SVT team is doing the same logical thinking with the Voodoo, making multiple incremental changes and improvements to the Coyote in the same mentality as the changes from the 5.4 Condor to the 5.8 Trinity. I don't think the FPC should have ever been associated with the Mustang as it doesn't match the everyman appeal that made the car so popular. Look at what owners have accomplished with the Coyote, pushing over 500hp to the wheels N/A on pump gas. A factory version of that would be amazing!

 

[TearTheHorizon]

Pill, my math might be a little off. But 358ci, is that under 5.0 liters?

Heres a flat plane chevy LS.
[ame]

 

[Red]

Thanks for the kind words, Falc'man. Much appreciated.

Pace: I understand where you're coming from re everyone designing an engine. But, it is something that just interests me, plain and simple. Also, several of my posts dealt with the feasibility of some statements/rumors here. Then, once that was dealt with, I thought it would be interesting, to myself and hopefully others, to see if a street-legal, 525 horse, 8500 rpm, Coyote based engine was even feasible at all. Those two numbers came from other members here; don't know if they are rumored values for the Voodoo or not. I just thought it would be interesting to investigate at a very general level.

To restate, again, my opinion is that Ford already has something close to the Voodoo in the Aluminator. It's already rated at 500 horse @ 7500 rpm (with unknown exhaust -- anyone know?) and carries a 2yr/24k mile warranty. They'd probably have to work emissions and upgrade durability (for a longer warranty).

But, both TTH and Pill, to name but two, state that Ford is testing various displacements as well as flat cranks. I have no reason to not believe them. Various displacements mean they are playing w/ bore, stroke, and rod length (and likely compression height for fine tuning -- I've kept that constant) and perhaps rod bearing dimensions. A flat crank means Ford is playing with induction and exhaust designs. So it appears Ford is looking at a rather wider design space than I ,for one, would have expected. Hence my numbers games.

And, finally, one more conceptual engine (sorry, Pace). To recap, the original 412/390 Coyote was reported to have a VE of 108% - 110% @ peak torque, and 98% - 99% @ peak power. Assuming those numbers hold for the conceptual 4.5L V8 generating 525 HP @ 8500 rpm resulted in a rather low Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BFSC) number of ~0.47 @ peak power. I don't think this is a feasible number for this particular car and its intended customer base (as in cost).

So, I decided to increase the displacement a bit, and set mean piston speed to 24.0 m/s -- still feasible but getting up there. Also kept the idea of using existing components as much as possible (100 mm bore centers, 227 mm deck height, mainly). Here are the various numbers:

bore: 94.0 mm
stroke: 84.7 mm
rod: 154.7 mm
displacement: 4,702.4 cc (287 cid)
rod/stroke: 1.826
mean piston speed (@ 8500 rpm): 24.00 m/s
max piston speed: 39.09 m/sec
peak accel: 4,361 g's
max piston speed occurs at: 75.66 degrees before and after TDC

Power @ 8500 rpm: 525 hp
Torque @ 8500 rpm: 324.4 ft-lbf

BMEP @ peak power: 170.5 psi

For comparison of BMEP: the Aluminator has a BMEP of ~175 psi @ peak power, so 170.5 is well within reason.

Assuming 99% VE @ peak power gives a BFSC of 0.489. Let's say Ford can squeeze a little more breathing out of the heads and can attain 100% VE @ peak power, BFSC climbs to 0.494 (Higher BFSC's are easier to attain, and indicate lower efficiency). Still some pretty stout numbers for peak power, but I think they're much more reasonable than the 0.470 BFSC of the 4.5L.

So, I think a street-legal, 525 horse @ 8500 rpm, Coyote based V8 design is feasible. My feel is that it would be a rather high strung little SOB, but with TiVCT, who knows.

 

[Red]

Nice one TTH. Lingenfelter was the man... Personally, I much prefer the 'music' of the Innov8Race Engines Coyote that Chopsui posted a while back.

358 cid is ~5.87 liters....

 

[TearTheHorizon]

I am curious, would you mind running your numbers with a slight modification?


Hypothetically, 5.2 liters making 550 horsepower. No revs higher than 8500.

Sponsored