Voodoo Theory

[pacettr]

lol sorry I had no idea. that was just supposed to be a joke. didn't exactly come across through the interwebs that way.

:clap2:

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[Red]

Gents, I'd like to make one thing clear: My previous posts were meant to be a quick look into the feasibility of some comments here. Such as 8500 rpm out of the current 5.0, 525 horse, maybe a flat crank. They are not meant to predict what Ford will do -- I have no idea about that.

My opinion(s)? I think the current Roadrunner engine, punched out to the rumored 5.2L, with a compression bump (11.5 - 12), DI, improved exhaust, rods and pistons from the Aluminator, and revised cams could certainly make 500 horse @ 7500 rpm, all the while carrying a nice warranty. 500 HP @ 7500 rpm out of 5.2L (let's call it 317 cid) equates to a BMEP of 166.5psi -- well within reason. My opinion is that this would be a 'safe' and low-cost route to 500 HP. But I have no idea what Ford will actually do.

 

[TearTheHorizon]

A tad bit of an update on voodoo, as of monday the 5.8 line goes down. Expected for 10 months.
Some changes need to be made it seems.

 

[Red]

TTH, thanks for the update. Keep 'em coming.

I've found three bits of information; two related to post 177. First, I found an article:

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/te...ford_mustang_gt_50_coyote_engine/viewall.html

saying the volumetric efficiency of the original 412/390 Coyote is 108% - 110% at peak torque (4250 rpm), and 98% - 99% at peak power (6500 rpm). So we can back out a BFSC of 0.475 at peak torque (using 108% VE), and 0.501 @ peak power (using 99% VE). Lower BFSC means higher efficiency. If we assume the Roadrunner has equal VE's, then it's BFSC's are 0.479 @ peak torque and 0.537 @ peak HP. Finally, if we can assume similar VE's for the conceptual 525 horse @ 8500 rpm, 4.5 liter V8, we have 0.470 @ peak power. My opinion is that this is a bit out there. Possible, but doubtful if it's feasible, really. Probably need a VE in the 105% range to be more feasible. Definitely possible; just don't know how likely in a production engine where cost is very important.

But, secondly, the 2014 FRPP catalog lists a cast iron Coyote 5.0 block w/ 94.0 mm bores (PN M6010-BOSS50). This matches, exactly, the concept engine's bore. So, I imagine Ford has a head gasket that won't blow across cylinders.

Thirdly, also in the 2014 FRPP catalog is a 'big bore' aluminum 4.6 block with iron sleeves and 94.0 mm bore (M-6010-T50). Showing/proving the Coyote, with same 100 mm bore centers as the 4.6, can have the same 94.0 mm bore. A 94.0 mm bore, 92.7 mm stroke V8 equates to 5,147 cc -- painfully close to the rumored 5.2 liter displacement for the 'Voodoo'. Increasing the stroke by 0.1 mm yields a displacement of 5,152 cc -- which can correctly be called a 5.2 liter engine. A tenth of a millimeter can easily be taken out of the compression height of the piston.

 

[TearTheHorizon]

I'm fairly certain the voodoo will use a spray bore.

 

[Dirk McGurck]

TTH, thanks for the update. Keep 'em coming.

I've found three bits of information; two related to post 177. First, I found an article:

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/te...ford_mustang_gt_50_coyote_engine/viewall.html

saying the volumetric efficiency of the original 412/390 Coyote is 108% - 110% at peak torque (4250 rpm), and 98% - 99% at peak power (6500 rpm). So we can back out a BFSC of 0.475 at peak torque (using 108% VE), and 0.501 @ peak power (using 99% VE). Lower BFSC means higher efficiency. If we assume the Roadrunner has equal VE's, then it's BFSC's are 0.479 @ peak torque and 0.537 @ peak HP. Finally, if we can assume similar VE's for the conceptual 525 horse @ 8500 rpm, 4.5 liter V8, we have 0.470 @ peak power. My opinion is that this is a bit out there. Possible, but doubtful if it's feasible, really. Probably need a VE in the 105% range to be more feasible. Definitely possible; just don't know how likely in a production engine where cost is very important.

But, secondly, the 2014 FRPP catalog lists a cast iron Coyote 5.0 block w/ 94.0 mm bores (PN M6010-BOSS50). This matches, exactly, the concept engine's bore. So, I imagine Ford has a head gasket that won't blow across cylinders.

Thirdly, also in the 2014 FRPP catalog is a 'big bore' aluminum 4.6 block with iron sleeves and 94.0 mm bore (M-6010-T50). Showing/proving the Coyote, with same 100 mm bore centers as the 4.6, can have the same 94.0 mm bore. A 94.0 mm bore, 92.7 mm stroke V8 equates to 5,147 cc -- painfully close to the rumored 5.2 liter displacement for the 'Voodoo'. Increasing the stroke by 0.1 mm yields a displacement of 5,152 cc -- which can correctly be called a 5.2 liter engine. A tenth of a millimeter can easily be taken out of the compression height of the piston.

I still like the idea of the 4.5L, mostly because of how many people are going to ignorantly laugh at the engine downsizing.

 

[Red]

Thanks TTH. Not being argumentative at all, just asking a question: Aren't the spray bore blocks delivered to the niche line? Does the niche line actually perform the PTWA? I thought it was performed elsewhere; could certainly be wrong.

 

[Red]

Dirk, yeah, I have to wonder/feel that the 5.0 will be downsized sometime due to CAFE. But, I'm not in the industry, so that's just pure speculation on my part.

Bill

 

[thePill]

I have also received a few PM's and emails saying the Voodoo will be a PTWA bore Coyote.

I have heard everything from a 4.4 to a 5.4.

I can say one thing about a Voodoo with a flat plane crank...

ANY FLAT PLANE CRANK WILL BE UNDER 5 LITERS...

 

[pacettr]

ANY FLAT PLANE CRANK WILL BE UNDER 5 LITERS...

Why?

 

[thePill]

Why?

Vibration, I don't think there has ever been a FPC V8 over 5 liters. Nor a V10 or V12 I believe.

 

[Grimace427]

But, secondly, the 2014 FRPP catalog lists a cast iron Coyote 5.0 block w/ 94.0 mm bores (PN M6010-BOSS50). This matches, exactly, the concept engine's bore. So, I imagine Ford has a head gasket that won't blow across cylinders.

Thirdly, also in the 2014 FRPP catalog is a 'big bore' aluminum 4.6 block with iron sleeves and 94.0 mm bore (M-6010-T50). Showing/proving the Coyote, with same 100 mm bore centers as the 4.6, can have the same 94.0 mm bore. A 94.0 mm bore, 92.7 mm stroke V8 equates to 5,147 cc -- painfully close to the rumored 5.2 liter displacement for the 'Voodoo'. Increasing the stroke by 0.1 mm yields a displacement of 5,152 cc -- which can correctly be called a 5.2 liter engine. A tenth of a millimeter can easily be taken out of the compression height of the piston.

That first part number you listed is a '96-04 4.6 2V block, not a Coyote block.

If you were thinking about an actual big bore Coyote block, you were thinking of the Cobra Jet engine which has a 94mm bore and 92.7mm stroke.

 

[Red]

I agree, Pill. The only possible driver (that I see) for the flat crank is equally spaced induction and exhaust pulses on each bank. How much torque and power is that worth? I'd have a hard time believing > 5%, but that's based simply on gut feel. But then there's the drawback of the secondary imbalance, which does concern me. Due to this, as you note, one should go to shorter strokes, lighter pistons (as in smaller, which along with less arm means less displacement), longer rods, and lighter materials (Ti rods?) to reduce the stresses associated w/ this imbalance.

There is also the quicker throttle response due to the lower moment of inertia of a flat crank. But a 90 deg crank V8, of similar stroke and reciprocating weight, can be made to rev awfully quick -- certainly quick enough to satisfy anyone on the street.

 

[Red]

Grimace -- I stand corrected. I saw 5.0 Boss, 94 mm bore, 4.6 deck height and jumped the gun. My mistake.

But in any event, 94 mm bores on 100 mm bore centers. There are two 4.6 L blocks in the FRPP catalog with those dimensions. So there has to be a head gasket, or two, that'll live in that setting.

 

[TearTheHorizon]

I could also be wrong, I was passed a small bit of info, and made an educated guess based on that. I'll remove that bit from my post to reduce confusion.

Pill, the voodoo is 5.2 liters as it sits right now. They may change that due to the current issues with the motor holding together.

Also, by boring to 5.2 don't you shift the bore/stroke ratio in favor of bore? Considering the 5.0 coyote is square iirc.

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