Voodoo Theory

[S550Boss]

I agree.. and I am eagerly awaiting the results either way.

As to a boosted Coyote.. that is an interesting topic. We've all seen the bosses on the front cover for the supercharger, and we've seen the heroes work the Australians have done by offering not one but two factory superchargers (although neither tuned very highly). You have to wonder what Dearborn was thinking... perhaps there was an idea of offering something like this, only to have the Boss or Shelby teams veto it (and the Boss should not have been supercharged).

A turbo Coyote is on all our minds... but I have a hard time envisioning this due to underhood packaging. Yea, it's been done in the drag race concept car, but look what it took to package it - what they did there is impossible for a street licensed car and in a daily driven car. And the left side of the engine is disappointingly filled with electronics which would have to be moved elsewhere (as I said in my blog post, that should have been done for S550 to allow twin MAFs so that this engine can breath to it's potential). And the swept-back headlamps cut into the room on each side where these could easily have been packaged.

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[331coupe]

I've seen plenty of twin turbo and single turbo coyotes that are street driven cars. I don't have the slightest doubt Ford can do a turbo coyote deal as a daily driver.

 

[Overboost]

I personally don't believe we will see the trinity anymore. If anything it will be a boosted 5.0 in my opinion.

I don't think a boosted Coyote is the way to go. I'm sure Ford Racing will offer their usual mix of power adders, but I think the future will be a smaller engine, maybe a 4.6, with twin turbo power. Take a look at BMW and Mercedes, both are going to smaller V8's with twin turbo power to make big horsepower in the M/AMG cars.

From a manufacturing perspective, using a derivative of Coyote makes a lot of sense. You've got a lot of development done with the existing engine in the Mustang and F150, Roadrunner being based on Coyote, with different components, and a common size to adapt ancillary components in the engine bay. If it allows engineers to commonize more components and drive costs down, as well as streamline the final assembly process, it makes sense for a lot of other reasons. IIRC, Trinity, and Condor before it, were developed from the 5.4 mod family, which is basically dead now. What used to be a widely utilized program (F150, Econoline, Mustang, etc.) is now bespoke to one, limited production model, and a large SUV that sells about the same per year (<10,000 units). If Ford updates Expedition and Navigator to use the new engines, then Trinity is even more expensive to build, due to unique parts for a single engine. The ROI isn't going to be anywhere near what it is on the Coyote.

Taking a look at the end of S197 sales, the Boss 302 did extremely well, and was probably one of the best SE models we've seen in a modern Mustang. Mach 1 and Bullitt were great cars, but didn't sell as well as the Boss models did. Ford may use this as justification to keep the next SVT car devoid of forced induction, in hopes that the fire behind the Boss will carry over.

Put in perspective, the Coyote (and rumored Voodoo) are both smaller than current GM offerings. We can infer that the LT1 will make it into Camaro in some form in the future, but we know it'll still be a 6.2L engine. I don't expect a 5.3L engine under the hood of a Camaro any time soon, but who knows.

 

[S550Boss]

Yes, with giant turbos right up against the hood. That won't work. It's either got to go on the sides, in front of each exhaust manifold (which means exhaust exit complications), or in the valley (which leads to exhaust packaging issues, and a further-forward engine and more).
So who knows. If it's done, it will be interesting.

 

[331coupe]

I don't think a boosted Coyote is the way to go. I'm sure Ford Racing will offer their usual mix of power adders, but I think the future will be a smaller engine, maybe a 4.6, with twin turbo power. Take a look at BMW and Mercedes, both are going to smaller V8's with twin turbo power to make big horsepower in the M/AMG cars.

From a manufacturing perspective, using a derivative of Coyote makes a lot of sense. You've got a lot of development done with the existing engine in the Mustang and F150, Roadrunner being based on Coyote, with different components, and a common size to adapt ancillary components in the engine bay. If it allows engineers to commonize more components and drive costs down, as well as streamline the final assembly process, it makes sense for a lot of other reasons. IIRC, Trinity, and Condor before it, were developed from the 5.4 mod family, which is basically dead now. What used to be a widely utilized program (F150, Econoline, Mustang, etc.) is now bespoke to one, limited production model, and a large SUV that sells about the same per year (<10,000 units). If Ford updates Expedition and Navigator to use the new engines, then Trinity is even more expensive to build, due to unique parts for a single engine. The ROI isn't going to be anywhere near what it is on the Coyote.

Taking a look at the end of S197 sales, the Boss 302 did extremely well, and was probably one of the best SE models we've seen in a modern Mustang. Mach 1 and Bullitt were great cars, but didn't sell as well as the Boss models did. Ford may use this as justification to keep the next SVT car devoid of forced induction, in hopes that the fire behind the Boss will carry over.

Put in perspective, the Coyote (and rumored Voodoo) are both smaller than current GM offerings. We can infer that the LT1 will make it into Camaro in some form in the future, but we know it'll still be a 6.2L engine. I don't expect a 5.3L engine under the hood of a Camaro any time soon, but who knows.

The big 3 are in competition with each other for power/performance. SVT being N/A would surprise me, if what mr. peabody says as far as nothing bigger than the 5.0 being able to fit. I see the only way Ford being able to compete with chevy in a power/performance standpoint and keep it N/A would mean going more displacement, 5.8/6.2. If Mr. Peabody is telling the truth, then they will not be able to do this, which will only leave 1 option and that is to boost the platform you are already using and have been using for the past 4 years. I could see maybe a 5.0 pushed to a 5.2 and making some decent power, but to compete with the performance of chevy is that going to be enough? I don't see the 4.6 coming back for 1 vehicle, the cost wouldn't make sense.

 

[331coupe]

Yes, with giant turbos right up against the hood. That won't work. It's either got to go on the sides, in front of each exhaust manifold (which means exhaust exit complications), or in the valley (which leads to exhaust packaging issues, and a further-forward engine and more).
So who knows. If it's done, it will be interesting.

You could do a single and put it at the bottom like is done with the helion single kit and can make 600rwhp no problem. I haven't seen any issues with the turbo coyotes that are out right now. I've got a buddy that has made 738rwhp with a bone stock motor (bigger injectors) on 8lbs of boost and e85. This was just them playing around with it, and it has been turned down, but they have no issues with "exhaust exit complications".

 

[jjw]

We are not going to see any FI v8's for a while… most likely not until the GT500 gets reintroduced in a few years. They won't be boosting the GT350, just like they didn't boost the b302 and for the very same reasons. I very seriously doubt the first version we see of "Voodoo" will be FI. I'm not sure we'd see any FI version of Voodoo for the matter.

 

[331coupe]

We are not going to see any FI v8's for a while… most likely not until the GT500 gets reintroduced in a few years. They won't be boosting the GT350, just like they didn't boost the b302 and for the very same reasons. I very seriously doubt the first version we see of "Voodoo" will be FI. I'm not sure we'd see any FI version of Voodoo for the matter.

I agree it will be a while before we see FI. GT350 with a n/a "voodoo" that if it's true can make 500-550hp, will be very successful. i'd personally like to see Ford do alot more N/A stuff just so you don't have to hear the chevy fanboys constantly talk about how Ford needs FI to make power. With what mr. peabody said about nothing bigger than a 5.0 being able to fit, that worried me that maybe Ford wasn't going to be able to do a 500-600hp N/A engine like rumors suggested. Like I said though if the "voodoo" is true and really will make the power claimed, I'm excited and that will be huge competition for GM

 

[Twin Turbo]

The rumoured 5.2 might not be physically bigger in terms of engine size (in the engine bay), so don't get hung up on that. I'm sure Mr P Body will confirm, but my assumption was he meant the Coyote was a tight fit in physical dimensions, not that you couldn't/wouldn't see anything bigger than 5.0 in displacement terms. As long as Voodoo is based on Coyote, it should fit.

 

[S550Boss]

Ok, so if there is a single turbo in front of the engine, you have to feed it from both sides (ensuring equal flow for emissions sake), and then route a single exhaust pipe out of that to get behind the motor and out the back. Given the current engine mounting location, there is no room to run that from front of the engine to the back. I just can't see this in production in this engine compartment and packaging.

Again, I am talking production level specifications and requirements here, not aftermarket. Yes, anything can be done, but not when meeting production specs.

And as to Ford producing a 600 HP (total rumors based on absolutely zero) naturally aspirated V-8 engine with existing or 10% more displacement, meeting production and emission specs, I find that very very hard to believe. 100 HP/liter can be achieved (I have a car in the garage that does 120 HP/liter), but it will take way more technology (and expense) than the Coyote already has to make that kind of number. And while "flat crank" is very "voodoo marketing", it's not at all the only piece of the puzzle that it will take - not even close. And don't count on just revving it higher... that would produce less torque, and way more emissions. It's very tough these days to make an emissions legal engine go 8000 or 9000 RPM without thorough and exacting engineering and tuning (and a very different bore/strike ratio). This can all be argued endlessly... but in this case seeing is believing. And we'll have to wait a long time yet for that.

 

[S550Boss]

The rumoured 5.2 might not be physically bigger

Spray bore would probably make a 5.2 liter engine (and take a few pounds out of it). I'm sure somebody who has the specs handy can figure this out... I can't right now today.

 

[331coupe]

The rumoured 5.2 might not be physically bigger in terms of engine size (in the engine bay), so don't get hung up on that. I'm sure Mr P Body will confirm, but my assumption was he meant the Coyote was a tight fit in physical dimensions, not that you couldn't/wouldn't see anything bigger than 5.0 in displacement terms. As long as Voodoo is based on Coyote, it should fit.

Don't know if that was directed at me...If it was I got that part, I know he meant couldn't physically fit, and I know the 5.2 would be based of a coyote.

 

[jjw]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect more then 100-105hp/liter in a production NA 5.2.
Bottom line is we're not going to be seeing anything close to or over 600hp in a mustang for a while. If you want that, start looking for 13-14 GT500s or Shelbys current GT350. I wouldn't be surprised if around 500-550 is the max we see from a factory car for a few years. But if the car is overall a huge improvement and more balanced, thats great. That is what the aftermarket it for.
That CD article is all BS.

 

[331coupe]

Ok, so if there is a single turbo in front of the engine, you have to feed it from both sides (ensuring equal flow for emissions sake), and then route a single exhaust pipe out of that to get behind the motor and out the back. Given the current engine mounting location, there is no room to run that from front of the engine to the back. I just can't see this in production in this engine compartment and packaging.

I haven't seen the s550 engine compartment or packaging so I can't argue with you on that. I'm using the s197 platform as an example, and with what I've seen on just that platform, Ford could have easily done a turbo setup for it to meet any specifications and requirements.

 

[331coupe]

Fellas I think you misunderstood slightly, I'm just using the 500-600 as a range, I'm very aware they won't have a NA 5.2 that will make 600hp, just like I'm aware that you won't see a 600hp deal until MAYBE the gt500 comes out. 500-600 is just a range I used since we don't know what it will really be, could be 500, could be 520, 540, 550, etc..

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