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Voodoo Theory

pacettr

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I was contemplating the possibilities of how this engine could have come about as we've heard several rumors referring to its development.


I can't help but think that with the massive potential of the Coyote that Ford would want to come up with a version of it that can make enough power for a specialty line while still holding up to Ford's stringent durability expectations.


I'm also working off the educated guesses that:
1) the Trinity V8 doesn't fit the s550
2) the Coyote V8 does fit the s550
3) it's more cost effective to modify an existing mill than to engineer a new one



This led me to wonder if the rumored "5.2 Voodoo" is a Coyote block that uses the PTWA technology used in the aforementioned Trinity which would do away with the Coyote's current cylinder liners and allow for a slightly larger bore. This would serve two purposes; more displacement and unshrouding of the valves allowing for even better breathing than the already heady airflow numbers and rpm capabilities of the Coyote. Add a little higher compression and DI, and you have a high rpm screamer capable of 500-550 hp. Lower the compression a bit and add forced induction in the form of a TVS or (more likely IMO) EcoBoost technology and offer a 650 hp monster.




It's no FPC, but IMO is a more cost-effective solution for offering high hp in a more confined engine bay with ever-tightening emissions and CAFE requirements.




Thoughts?
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Twin Turbo

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I'd buy that theory.

I think the majority of us assumed that Ford would offer up a twin turbo Coyote 5.0 (did they show the twin turbo Cobra Jet concept just to throw us off the scent?).........or at the very least, a supercharged Coyote as, lets face it, there are plenty of those in the aftermarket already.

I'm still surprised that Ford went to all the effort to produce the 662bhp Trinity for just two model years. That must have cost a heck of a lot for just a few thousand applications. I applaud them though as, perhaps in 30 years, they'll be as revered as the 69/70 Boss 429 is now.

Many were also expecting Ford to top that 662bhp as it's pretty unusual for top dog models to be less powerful going forwards. Another reason why I think the GT350 moniker makes sense (despite Shelby's own, current, GT350 pumping out almost that amount in supercharged Coyote form - confusing, isn't it? LOL)

So, a highly modified engine based on the Coyote? Makes sense to me. I'll be interested to see where it baselines for the new car. 500bhp in a chassis that can use all of that power will be just as effective (if not more) than 662bhp in a chassis that currently struggles to use 500bhp.

I'm hoping this new GT350 sits somewhere between a '13 Boss 302 and a '14 GT500........meaning a blend of the best of both. A car that can handle a road course, yet still has sufficient power to be a straight line beast, too.

Will Voodoo see forced induction down the line? I think all bets are off, and I'm sure the aftermarket will do it, but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

:)
 

331coupe

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I hope whatever engine it is 5.0, 5.2, that it's at least turbocharged, get rid of that old TVS crap.
 

Whiskey11

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I'd buy that theory.

I think the majority of us assumed that Ford would offer up a twin turbo Coyote 5.0 (did they show the twin turbo Cobra Jet concept just to throw us off the scent?).........or at the very least, a supercharged Coyote as, lets face it, there are plenty of those in the aftermarket already.

I'm still surprised that Ford went to all the effort to produce the 662bhp Trinity for just two model years. That must have cost a heck of a lot for just a few thousand applications. I applaud them though as, perhaps in 30 years, they'll be as revered as the 69/70 Boss 429 is now.

Many were also expecting Ford to top that 662bhp as it's pretty unusual for top dog models to be less powerful going forwards. Another reason why I think the GT350 moniker makes sense (despite Shelby's own, current, GT350 pumping out almost that amount in supercharged Coyote form - confusing, isn't it? LOL)

So, a highly modified engine based on the Coyote? Makes sense to me. I'll be interested to see where it baselines for the new car. 500bhp in a chassis that can use all of that power will be just as effective (if not more) than 662bhp in a chassis that currently struggles to use 500bhp.

I'm hoping this new GT350 sits somewhere between a '13 Boss 302 and a '14 GT500........meaning a blend of the best of both. A car that can handle a road course, yet still has sufficient power to be a straight line beast, too.

Will Voodoo see forced induction down the line? I think all bets are off, and I'm sure the aftermarket will do it, but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

:)
If they are trying to stay true to the GT350 moniker then I really hope it is N/A since the GT350's road course prowess is extremely well known in the Mustang community and forced induction, ESPECIALLY superchargers, are NOT friendly to road course work since they cause tremendous amounts of heat soak when run for extended periods of time. Turbo's are better but still require heavy cooling systems to work correctly and most of that weight is put out in front of the nose which SUCKS!

I hope whatever engine it is 5.0, 5.2, that it's at least turbocharged, get rid of that old TVS crap.
This... think of the children! :)
 

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S550Boss

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Of course the Trinity V8 fits inside the S550 engine compartment... the S550 engine compartment is only slightly modified from S197 duty. The width of the engine compartment is identical, the space between the framer rails and between the strut towers is identical because this is just a modified S197.
The only difference is the loss of some space because of the swept-back headlamps... this resulted in rearranging the electronics on the left and the intake on the right.
The idea that the Trinity wouldn't fit is a rumor that was started by somebody who didn't look at the mule spy pictures of the engine compartment when they came out last December. That gave it all away when we saw the new engine compartment, including the new inner fender liners, inside the old front fenders and front cap - all of which were a simple and easy fit without hacking or bondo. See this spy picture analysis from last December - this is old and well established news.

So the Trinity will fit width-wise... the only question is whether it will be offered or not. There was a considerable investment made in it, it would be logical to see it offered for another year or two until newer (and more modern, cleaner, better performing, and better engineered for longevity) engines are available. And presumably it supports the current and short-term emissions requirements.

As to the spray bore technology, remember that this is a very successful technology from Ford, although it wasn't without it's bumps in the road. And remember that this is licensed outside of Ford - Nissan licenses it for the GT-R engine (where it takes the existing 3.7, drops the steel liners, and results in .1 liter more displacement). So it's logical to assume that it would be used for a larger displacement Coyote IF (and nothing has been confirmed - it's all rumor) such a thing is to be offered. Some bore would be gained thru the use of this technology, so the next question is then if a longer stroke will be used and/or the deck height will be raised.

I agree about the supercharger... it's bad for road course use - especially in hot states like here. If it's driven well, it just ends up all about heat soak, no matter how well it's cooled or how low it's revved. Even Ford's own supercar GT was poor in this area: back when SVT used to have a road show (when there was an actual SVT, not the virtual shell it is now), Ford's own engineers told us that their own GT garked it's fluid so much on road courses around the country that despite two engine rebuilds trying to get around the problem, it couldn't be fixed and they stopped bringing it to the shows. That was not a good motor.. but it was also all they had to work with as a base (Ford's engine investment was very poor then). Between that and the other issues with the car the program had a major element of failure about it.
 

stable68

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S550boss i think you are mistaken, mister peabody clearly stated that the 5.8 would not fit in the s550. He also made it clear that the s550 is mostly a new platform, not an evolution of s197, however, the exterior design is an evolution of s197. The 5.8 engine is wider than the 5.0 and the 5.0 looked cramped in that engine bay
 

S550Boss

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No he didn't on either count. It's been established that the S550 is an evolved S197, no matter what marketing spin Ford may choose to put on it (we'll see that officially over the next few months).
Look at the pictures very very closely... the room around the Coyote in the mule is identical. That mule is an S505 front end with the S197 fenders, cap, and hood bolt don. And that mule therefore has the very slight (as I document in the post) changes to the strut tower. The only open question is hood height.. but that's easy to change (in fact, interestingly, the special edition spied apparently has a much talker hood with venting just like a GT500).
Now that said, the master cylinder is in a different place, the engine compartment has to account for left- and right-hand drive, there is trim covering the batter (and I believe will be covering the master cylinder on the final car), and the intake filter box is smaller and shaped differently. And other minor differences. So the Trinity would be packaged (very) slightly differently there. Nothing is a bolt-in, but the engine compartment is all but the same.
And then Car & Driver, on whatever basis their cover story was written, says the Trinity will be offered along wi9th the existing engines in their existing tune (which if true for the 3.7 and 5.0, is very disappointing - but then the mule didn't have port injection either).
 

GTsquid

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500bhp in a chassis that can use all of that power will be just as effective (if not more) than 662bhp in a chassis that currently struggles to use 500bhp.
This.

S550boss i think you are mistaken, mister peabody clearly stated that the 5.8 would not fit in the s550. He also made it clear that the s550 is mostly a new platform, not an evolution of s197, however, the exterior design is an evolution of s197. The 5.8 engine is wider than the 5.0 and the 5.0 looked cramped in that engine bay
And this.

It lends credence to OP's theory about it being based off of the coyote block. In the end it's not about the raw number but the ability to put that power down and as it is the horsepower wars are pretty much over. There's a lot of unknowns right now about not only what the Voodoo engine is but also which hi-po model would receive it. Would the GT350 be the range topper or will there be a GT500 successor on its way that gets some forced induced version of it? Also I may be wrong about this but about the 5.8 being used for only 2 years -- it was after all just based on the 5.4L and not a clean sheet design like the Coyote and therefore much less expensive to develop? In that sense it's bones are fairly old. I gotta say though, while pacettr could be right about it being based off the 5.0L, and it's a great engine, I would be very surprised to see SVT not develop its own engine for the halo model. This has been true for some time now.
 

Overboost

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Of course the Trinity V8 fits inside the S550 engine compartment... the S550 engine compartment is only slightly modified from S197 duty. The width of the engine compartment is identical, the space between the framer rails and between the strut towers is identical because this is just a modified S197.
The only difference is the loss of some space because of the swept-back headlamps... this resulted in rearranging the electronics on the left and the intake on the right.
The idea that the Trinity wouldn't fit is a rumor that was started by somebody who didn't look at the mule spy pictures of the engine compartment when they came out last December. That gave it all away when we saw the new engine compartment, including the new inner fender liners, inside the old front fenders and front cap - all of which were a simple and easy fit without hacking or bondo. See this spy picture analysis from last December - this is old and well established news.

So the Trinity will fit width-wise... the only question is whether it will be offered or not. There was a considerable investment made in it, it would be logical to see it offered for another year or two until newer (and more modern, cleaner, better performing, and better engineered for longevity) engines are available. And presumably it supports the current and short-term emissions requirements.

As to the spray bore technology, remember that this is a very successful technology from Ford, although it wasn't without it's bumps in the road. And remember that this is licensed outside of Ford - Nissan licenses it for the GT-R engine (where it takes the existing 3.7, drops the steel liners, and results in .1 liter more displacement). So it's logical to assume that it would be used for a larger displacement Coyote IF (and nothing has been confirmed - it's all rumor) such a thing is to be offered. Some bore would be gained thru the use of this technology, so the next question is then if a longer stroke will be used and/or the deck height will be raised.

I agree about the supercharger... it's bad for road course use - especially in hot states like here. If it's driven well, it just ends up all about heat soak, no matter how well it's cooled or how low it's revved. Even Ford's own supercar GT was poor in this area: back when SVT used to have a road show (when there was an actual SVT, not the virtual shell it is now), Ford's own engineers told us that their own GT garked it's fluid so much on road courses around the country that despite two engine rebuilds trying to get around the problem, it couldn't be fixed and they stopped bringing it to the shows. That was not a good motor.. but it was also all they had to work with as a base (Ford's engine investment was very poor then). Between that and the other issues with the car the program had a major element of failure about it.
S550boss i think you are mistaken, mister peabody clearly stated that the 5.8 would not fit in the s550. He also made it clear that the s550 is mostly a new platform, not an evolution of s197, however, the exterior design is an evolution of s197. The 5.8 engine is wider than the 5.0 and the 5.0 looked cramped in that engine bay
JW, stop. You are so misinformed it's annoying. A simple search proves you wrong:

A 7.0 definitely won't fit, not with out major changes to the engine bay including front rails, plenum, etc. These changes are not feasible for a refresh either. The 5.0 is the absolute max width that can fit. Even the 5.0 is a challenge to fit.

No he didn't on either count. It's been established that the S550 is an evolved S197, no matter what marketing spin Ford may choose to put on it (we'll see that officially over the next few months).
Look at the pictures very very closely... the room around the Coyote in the mule is identical. That mule is an S505 front end with the S197 fenders, cap, and hood bolt don. And that mule therefore has the very slight (as I document in the post) changes to the strut tower. The only open question is hood height.. but that's easy to change (in fact, interestingly, the special edition spied apparently has a much talker hood with venting just like a GT500).
Now that said, the master cylinder is in a different place, the engine compartment has to account for left- and right-hand drive, there is trim covering the batter (and I believe will be covering the master cylinder on the final car), and the intake filter box is smaller and shaped differently. And other minor differences. So the Trinity would be packaged (very) slightly differently there. Nothing is a bolt-in, but the engine compartment is all but the same.
And then Car & Driver, on whatever basis their cover story was written, says the Trinity will be offered along wi9th the existing engines in their existing tune (which if true for the 3.7 and 5.0, is very disappointing - but then the mule didn't have port injection either).
There's another big, obvious reason why Trinity needs to go. Think economics.

I'm trusting peabody.
 

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GTsquid

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A 7.0 definitely won't fit, not with out major changes to the engine bay including front rails, plenum, etc. These changes are not feasible for a refresh either. The 5.0 is the absolute max width that can fit. Even the 5.0 is a challenge to fit.
Seems pretty clear to me.
 

S550Boss

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500bhp in a chassis that can use all of that power will be just as effective (if not more) than 662bhp in a chassis that currently struggles to use 500bhp.
Exactly... and then there is the 200 pound weight loss. With the emissions and mileage hanging over our head, the long term will be more about power-to-weight rations - not primarily a HP number.
 

S550Boss

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Seems pretty clear to me.
Measure a Trinity against a Coyote and we may know. But it's a moot point since nothing official has been said, and nobody here is officially speaking for Ford - nor can they until the car is announced, the specs are announced and most importantly the product is done and shipped. That's anywhere from April to Summer... who knows since not even that is announced.

I'm not saying I don't want to see the Trinity, but I will stick to my claim about it fitting. Now also consider that there is "FIT" and there is "fit". Consider the SN95 with a modular 4-valve. Look at the bastardization of the exhaust system that had to be done to make that fit. Consider the lousy flow of the exhaust headers and the effect over overall performance. Yes, it fits, but it does not FIT. And whatever you do, don't get involved with a project to install headers on one of those. That's something I never want to see again.

And with the Coyote in the S197, we know that an enormous amount of power if locked up in the factory exhaust headers. Boss302s are seeing 60 more HP with long tubes. And while we won't see long tubes from the factory (impossible production overhead and packaging of the catcons), perhaps some sort of mid-length might be possible. After all, the factory setup isn't ground breaking... it was done well for what it is but it is inherently limited. And yes, there are timing tricks to help with this, but that again is limited in the end.

So perhaps something more can be done here. This would be about efficiency with the existing engine, rather than radically engineering a new engine that still couldn't breath as efficiently as it is capable of doing.
 

Overboost

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Exactly... and then there is the 200 pound weight loss. With the emissions and mileage hanging over our head, the long term will be more about power-to-weight rations - not primarily a HP number.
Again, all speculative. While the SVT model will most likely be lighter, the base car will not.
 

331coupe

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I personally don't believe we will see the trinity anymore. If anything it will be a boosted 5.0 in my opinion.
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