Voodoo Theory

[TearTheHorizon]

No need for rude words here, i'm just trying to make clear that if the (according to ford) 29.05 inch motor fits as nicely as the prototype shows, IMO the 30" 5.4/5.8 will fit. Hood clearance is a totally different aspect and I'm clueless as to the free space above the motor. However a hood bulge is possible, rearranging strut towers isn't likely. It was stated the 5.0 is the widest motor that could fit. I simply disagree based on current knowledge.
And, I doubt ford would do that to themselves, i know the yote is a highly capable motor. But limiting yourself to that power plant as the top motor for your halo car? Not likely. Again I only speculate here. But I sure would bet the condor/trinity could fit between those towers.

I certainly don't expect to see it in a production s550. But it could fit.

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[FordBlueHeart]

No need for rude words here, i'm just trying to make clear that if the (according to ford) 29.05 inch motor fits as nicely as the prototype shows, IMO the 30" 5.4/5.8 will fit. Hood clearance is a totally different aspect and I'm clueless as to the free space above the motor. However a hood bulge is possible, rearranging strut towers isn't likely. It was stated the 5.0 is the widest motor that could fit. I simply disagree based on current knowledge.
And, I doubt ford would do that to themselves, i know the yote is a highly capable motor. But limiting yourself to that power plant as the top motor for your halo car? Not likely. Again I only speculate here. But I sure would bet the condor/trinity could fit between those towers.

I certainly don't expect to see it in a production s550. But it could fit.

I'm not so sure about the space above the motor being usable since it has to be Euro pedestrian compliant too.
As far as "doubting Ford would do that to themselves," I disagree. Ford is planning for the future, not living in the past. To design a chassis around a motor that has extremely limited days due to emission and fuel economy standards, is asinine. Engines are continuing to downsize and efficiency is improving.

 

[TearTheHorizon]

Like i said i'm unaware of height issues. All i'm saying is that the 5.4/5.8 would fit between the towers. Does that mean they designed the 550 around the 5.8? No. But physically it fits width wise.
As far as Ford's future is concerned, here is my worth.

A motor based off of coyote named voodoo is fact.
A motor featuring 5.2 liters of displacement being designed is fact.
Three different pistons have been tested in the coyote so far these past few months.
Currently there is debate in Romeo on what should happen to the niche line. Currently niche line runs the 5.8. The debate is between running the 5.8 and a new motor, or just the new motor. I'll remind you, the niche line is specialty motors. As of late,Shelby motors.

Not implying anything. Just my .02.

 

[FordBlueHeart]

Thanks for your 2 cents.
I think it would be great if the 5.4 or 5.8 fit. It would save development monies for other advancements.

 

[TearTheHorizon]

I'm curious to see if Shelby will offer it as a post-ford option as opposed to from factory, kind of like the current gt350's are after factory ordeals. And i really, really, REALLY hope Lincoln works a deal into getting a 550 based model, two or four doors doesn't matter to me. Maybe a Mark 9? Or maybe a new sedan that's rwd. I'd take either.

as for the trinity, I wonder if the new suspension could use that 662+ hp effectively.

But i'm also really curious to see if this new 5.2 will see boost from factory. I keep my ears open but so far NA or boosted hasn't slipped anyone's mouths. But the (at minimum) three pistons they're playing around with tells me somethings up. Maybe higher compression, or maybe lower.

 

[RTD]

I posted my prediction on another forum:

Start with the Boss motor at 444hp.

Add the Cobra Jet intake manifold and larger throttle body. Add the Cobra Jet intake cams (which were originally developed for the Boss but later dropped for cost savings). They probably won't use the CJ exhaust cams since those were designed for open headers. Add the CJ MAF. Put in an open element CAI and revised tune (Ford has done this before, most recently with the 2010 GT500).

At this point you're probably at 505-510 hp.

If you want to go higher, add DI and bump the compression ratio by the half point or so that DI allows. All Coyote heads already have the DI boss cast into it, and with GM using DI in the C7 it's just a matter of time before Ford does it.

Now you're probably at 520-525 hp.

With the CJ ignition trigger wheel, the engine is good to 8400 RPM.

If you want to go even higher, bore it to 5.1 like the CJ. The displacement bump itself is only worth 5-6 hp, but it also unshrouds the valves at high RPM for another 5-10 hp. The CJ is sleeved by a third party which I don't see happening for a production motor, but maybe they could pull it off using the PTAW process from the GT500 to spray in the liners.

Bottom line is Ford can probably get 525 hp from a factory 5.0 and close to 540 hp from a 5.1 without switching to a new block or going with a flat plane crank. Couple this with a car that weighs 150-200 lbs less than a current Boss (I don't believe the 400 lb weight savings rumors) and you have a screamer that will make the Z28 look silly.

 

[bullets]

This makes a lot of sense to me. I think someone else also suggested it but have the high performance or SE models usher in DI before it makes its way into the GT for the 2018 (?) refresh, minus the increased displacement of course. That's a lot of power for a NA engine based off the 5.0. I'd still really like to see some forced induction options later on though.

 

[Vickstang]

I posted my prediction on another forum:

Start with the Boss motor at 444hp.

Add the Cobra Jet intake manifold and larger throttle body. Add the Cobra Jet intake cams (which were originally developed for the Boss but later dropped for cost savings). They probably won't use the CJ exhaust cams since those were designed for open headers. Add the CJ MAF. Put in an open element CAI and revised tune (Ford has done this before, most recently with the 2010 GT500).

At this point you're probably at 505-510 hp.

If you want to go higher, add DI and bump the compression ratio by the half point or so that DI allows. All Coyote heads already have the DI boss cast into it, and with GM using DI in the C7 it's just a matter of time before Ford does it.

Now you're probably at 520-525 hp.

With the CJ ignition trigger wheel, the engine is good to 8400 RPM.

If you want to go even higher, bore it to 5.1 like the CJ. The displacement bump itself is only worth 5-6 hp, but it also unshrouds the valves at high RPM for another 5-10 hp. The CJ is sleeved by a third party which I don't see happening for a production motor, but maybe they could pull it off using the PTAW process from the GT500 to spray in the liners.

Bottom line is Ford can probably get 525 hp from a factory 5.0 and close to 540 hp from a 5.1 without switching to a new block or going with a flat plane crank. Couple this with a car that weighs 150-200 lbs less than a current Boss (I don't believe the 400 lb weight savings rumors) and you have a screamer that will make the Z28 look silly.

So with all these possible things they could do, what's your actual horsepower # prediction?

I think many of us were hoping for a flat plane crank not just for the added power but for the visceral experience it provides by way of a fast revving and great sounding engine.

 

[FordBlueHeart]

Bottom line is Ford can probably get 525 hp from a factory 5.0 and close to 540 hp from a 5.1 without switching to a new block or going with a flat plane crank. Couple this with a car that weighs 150-200 lbs less than a current Boss (I don't believe the 400 lb weight savings rumors) and you have a screamer that will make the Z28 look silly.

I guess I will play the devil's advocate. I don't think that by adding all these upgrades together, that you will see the horsepower gains you are claiming.

I think the returns will diminish with each additional modification.

 

[RTD]

So with all these possible things they could do, what's your actual horsepower # prediction?

Realistically, around 510-525.

I think many of us were hoping for a flat plane crank not just for the added power but for the visceral experience it provides by way of a fast revving and great sounding engine.

There have been a number of threads about this on other forums, but keep in mind two things:

1) A 5 liter V8 (2.5 L per cylinder bank) is about the absolute max displacement for a flat plane setup, so we're unlikely to see a 5.1 or 5.2, if anything it would likely be destroked to 4.7-4.8. The reason is vibration due to harmonics.

2) While the Ferrari flat plane 4.5 sounds absolutely wicked, not all flat planes sound good. Have a look at the following (fast forward to 0:28):

 

[RTD]

I guess I will play the devil's advocate. I don't think that by adding all these upgrades together, that you will see the horsepower gains you are claiming.

I think the returns will diminish with each additional modification.

While I think the predictions of close to 600 hp some are throwing around are highly unrealistic, I don't think 505-540 hp is unrealistic at all. These are flywheel horsepower numbers. Bolt-on Bosses are putting down around 440 to the wheels (around 515 hp flywheel) today. That's just with a CAI, tune, headers, and x-pipe. The CJ intake manifold itself seems to be worth around 25-30 hp.

 

[nametoshowothers]

While I think the predictions of close to 600 hp some are throwing around are highly unrealistic, I don't think 505-540 hp is unrealistic at all. These are flywheel horsepower numbers. Bolt-on Bosses are putting down around 440 to the wheels (around 515 hp flywheel) today. That's just with a CAI, tune, headers, and x-pipe. The CJ intake manifold itself seems to be worth around 25-30 hp.

I think you are correct or at least close in your analysis. RPM, Intake, cams, intake and maybe some better exhaust from factory will get close to what you state. I to do not believe they will give 600, but 550 is possible. 525 minimum

if you take a boss increase displacement to 5.2 and rpm to 8000 rpm, you easily get the air for around 500 hp. Lots of technology to get extra.

 

[RTD]

I think you are correct or at least close in your analysis. RPM, Intake, cams, intake and maybe some better exhaust from factory will get close to what you state. I to do not believe they will give 600, but 550 is possible. 525 minimum

if you take a boss increase displacement to 5.2 and rpm to 8000 rpm, you easily get the air for around 500 hp. Lots of technology to get extra.

They just need to beat the Z28's 505 hp that's all really. And given the current 200 lb weight advantage of the Mustang over the Z28 which is likely to widen with the S550 they don't need to beat it by much. That's why I'm saying 510-525. Plus it gives them room to grow a few years down the road if they need to. I just hope they don't price it like the Z28 (close to $70k plus likely ridiculous dealer markups).

 

[Stevefreestyle]

I think you are correct or at least close in your analysis. RPM, Intake, cams, intake and maybe some better exhaust from factory will get close to what you state. I to do not believe they will give 600, but 550 is possible. 525 minimum

if you take a boss increase displacement to 5.2 and rpm to 8000 rpm, you easily get the air for around 500 hp. Lots of technology to get extra.

Although currently double the retail price of the Stock 420Hp 5.0, ford already have 500 N/A Hp from the 5.0 – with the 5.0L ALUMINATOR XS CRATE ENGINE</SPAN> – “500+ Hp”, with Cobra Jet Intake Manifold (tuned to 7750 Rpm) and with Warrantee
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=23300
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22445
Of course Shelby have 525 hp & 624 hp S/C iterations of the 5.0 Coyote with the current GT350

 

[Red]

Very sensible thesis, RTD. Re Stevef's comment: I have been wondering if the Aluminator would be the GT350 engine, essentially.

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