VMP vs Roush vs Whipple vs Edelbrock ??

[HA8N3RO]

Stick or A10, boost levels, what fuel and who tuned it?

Impressive numbers

Stick car, E85, DW 95lb injectors, stock pulley so 10psi, PBD Tuned, through Stock headers/cats. Will def see north of 700+ rwhp with catless setup. But again, this through a 2300 rotor pack, numbers would be higher on a 2650 but couldn't pass up the clearance deal they had this year.

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[Stang 19]

Reason I asked is I was jeolous of the corvette. I could hold my own against him in a race, but can’t chirp the tires like that. Was wondering if it is something the 5.0 won’t do because it’s not a pushrod engine. I bought the Procharger because I got a good deal on it from a guy, but knew it wouldn’t give the low end torque all the positive displacement guys talk about. I’m okay with the centri, actually kind of fun. Just wasn’t sure if that low end torque meant it would chirp tires with a quick blip of the throttle. I suppose it would, but would like to hear from someone with one installed on an S550 and what their experience is with doing what I describe.

Of course, the vette could have some sick gears, say 4.56 or even steeper, making the spinning super easy.

 

[brucelinc]

I must be weird. I want my car to hook....not spin. Although I do enjoy hearing it chirp the tires on the shifts.

 

[engineermike]

@brucelinc a supercharged s550 might not be your thing then. ;D

 

[brucelinc]

Mike, I run DRs on a prepped track. Even highly modded 9 second cars hook quite well at the strips where I run. I don't street race and rarely go WOT on the street even with my current flex fuel tune.

I go to the strip about every week during the summer. I just want to be able to have a chance against ZL1s and Hellcats which are typically high 10 second cars on DRs in decent air.

 

[engineermike]

Mike, I run DRs on a prepped track. Even highly modded 9 second cars hook quite well at the strips where I run. I don't street race and rarely go WOT on the street even with my current flex fuel tune.

I go to the strip about every week during the summer. I just want to be able to have a chance against ZL1s and Hellcats which are typically high 10 second cars on DRs in decent air.

I must have mis-understood your post #54. It sounded like you weren’t that worried about drag times....more street performance.

 

[Burkey]

The lure of the Edelbrock is strong, but the drop off up top when compared to Whipple dulls the shine for me. Am I wrong? I see it in all the charts posted here.

Im thinking it might depend a lot on what you’re looking at specifically.
I was in the same boat about 12 months or so ago. All I could see was the Eddy falling over up top. However, that was pre 2650, pre modular inlet, pre 103mm TB.
In my situation, I ran the Gen 2 Whipple (132mm TB/oversized HE), custom tuned by Lund, then the 2650 Eddy modular inlet with 103mm TB, again tuned by Lund. Catless Longtubes common to both setups, both pushing around 12psi.
I’ve lost absolutely nothing perceptible up top but gained a shit tonne off the bottom.
PBD then added an even more aggressive tune to it and now it’s just stupid. I’ll be adding e85 to the mix shortly, which will likely make fourth gear a genuine issue at low rpm.
If you’re sticking to a street tyre, consider this.
Neither will hook in 1st or 2nd gear (MT82/3.55). The Whipple would sometimes blow the tyres off in third from 3500, the Edelbrock won’t hook third at all at 3k.
So, if the Whipple DOES in fact enjoy a benefit up top, you’ll get to enjoy that benefit (acceleration) for about 1-2 seconds at the top of third gear. The rest of the time, the Edelbrock car is far more fun to drive.
Drag tyres will obviously change that somewhat.
I was always disappointed with the power delivery of the Whipple, it just never had the urgency I expected. The Edelbrock on the other hand is exactly what I expected, giving the car more of a big-block type power delivery.
Having said all of that, the game may well be very different if you’re talking stock tunes/catted factory headers etc. It seems that the Whipple tune is more polished than the Edelbrock, based on what I read on these forums.

 

[Stymee]

Reason I asked is I was jeolous of the corvette. I could hold my own against him in a race, but can’t chirp the tires like that. Was wondering if it is something the 5.0 won’t do because it’s not a pushrod engine. I bought the Procharger because I got a good deal on it from a guy, but knew it wouldn’t give the low end torque all the positive displacement guys talk about. I’m okay with the centri, actually kind of fun. Just wasn’t sure if that low end torque meant it would chirp tires with a quick blip of the throttle. I suppose it would, but would like to hear from someone with one installed on an S550 and what their experience is with doing what I describe.

Im thinking it might depend a lot on what you’re looking at specifically.
I was in the same boat about 12 months or so ago. All I could see was the Eddy falling over up top. However, that was pre 2650, pre modular inlet, pre 103mm TB.
In my situation, I ran the Gen 2 Whipple (132mm TB/oversized HE), custom tuned by Lund, then the 2650 Eddy modular inlet with 103mm TB, again tuned by Lund. Catless Longtubes common to both setups, both pushing around 12psi.
I’ve lost absolutely nothing perceptible up top but gained a shit tonne off the bottom.
PBD then added an even more aggressive tune to it and now it’s just stupid. I’ll be adding e85 to the mix shortly, which will likely make fourth gear a genuine issue at low rpm.
If you’re sticking to a street tyre, consider this.
Neither will hook in 1st or 2nd gear (MT82/3.55). The Whipple would sometimes blow the tyres off in third from 3500, the Edelbrock won’t hook third at all at 3k.
So, if the Whipple DOES in fact enjoy a benefit up top, you’ll get to enjoy that benefit (acceleration) for about 1-2 seconds at the top of third gear. The rest of the time, the Edelbrock car is far more fun to drive.
Drag tyres will obviously change that somewhat.
I was always disappointed with the power delivery of the Whipple, it just never had the urgency I expected. The Edelbrock on the other hand is exactly what I expected, giving the car more of a big-block type power delivery.
Having said all of that, the game may well be very different if you’re talking stock tunes/catted factory headers etc. It seems that the Whipple tune is more polished than the Edelbrock, based on what I read on these forums.

So even with factory headers and cats a Lund tuned EB at 10psi should make me a happy boy, right mate?

 

[Burkey]

So even with factory headers and cats a Lund tuned EB at 10psi should make me a happy boy, right mate?

I can’t say for sure re factory headers and cats (never used them) but yes, the plan is sound.
If you find that the Lund tune is a little soft at the bottom, go PBD. 15* vs 12* at 3k makes a huge difference. 19* up top vs 17* is also pretty handy.
Cam timing/lambda is virtually identical between the two. Lund will drive more like stock though, to the point where I feel that if Ford themselves had tuned it, they likely couldn’t have done a better job.
That’s not intended to bash either company, it’s just a buyers guide of “what you could expect”.
They both do great work but they go about it slightly differently.

 

[Stymee]

I can’t say for sure re factory headers and cats (never used them) but yes, the plan is sound.
If you find that the Lund tune is a little soft at the bottom, go PBD. 15* vs 12* at 3k makes a huge difference. 19* up top vs 17* is also pretty handy.
Cam timing/lambda is virtually identical between the two. Lund will drive more like stock though, to the point where I feel that if Ford themselves had tuned it, they likely couldn’t have done a better job.
That’s not intended to bash either company, it’s just a buyers guide of “what you could expect”.
They both do great work but they go about it slightly differently.

At 10psi on 93 I really don’t think the cats will hurt me all that much, drivability is key for me so the Lund tune sounds great.

I may ask for a race gas tune too, run MS109 at the track with a bit more timing, this will be cheaper than going return style fuel system for E85

 

[Sighlense]

I have been following the Edelbrock club (here) for over a year now. Crazy, i was dead set on Whipple for so long but the tables have since turned. Pretty amazing how Edelbrock has become a serious contender in the Mustang community in such a short period of time. Can anyone tell me if it is possible to bounce between an E85 tune and a 93 if i were to go the upgraded fuel system route? Not many E85 pumps in my area but i have felt what it can do (Lund E85 race tune) and i like it..... A LOT.

 

[Platinum_5.0]

Im thinking it might depend a lot on what you’re looking at specifically.
I was in the same boat about 12 months or so ago. All I could see was the Eddy falling over up top. However, that was pre 2650, pre modular inlet, pre 103mm TB.
In my situation, I ran the Gen 2 Whipple (132mm TB/oversized HE), custom tuned by Lund, then the 2650 Eddy modular inlet with 103mm TB, again tuned by Lund. Catless Longtubes common to both setups, both pushing around 12psi.
I’ve lost absolutely nothing perceptible up top but gained a shit tonne off the bottom.
PBD then added an even more aggressive tune to it and now it’s just stupid. I’ll be adding e85 to the mix shortly, which will likely make fourth gear a genuine issue at low rpm.
If you’re sticking to a street tyre, consider this.
Neither will hook in 1st or 2nd gear (MT82/3.55). The Whipple would sometimes blow the tyres off in third from 3500, the Edelbrock won’t hook third at all at 3k.
So, if the Whipple DOES in fact enjoy a benefit up top, you’ll get to enjoy that benefit (acceleration) for about 1-2 seconds at the top of third gear. The rest of the time, the Edelbrock car is far more fun to drive.
Drag tyres will obviously change that somewhat.
I was always disappointed with the power delivery of the Whipple, it just never had the urgency I expected. The Edelbrock on the other hand is exactly what I expected, giving the car more of a big-block type power delivery.
Having said all of that, the game may well be very different if you’re talking stock tunes/catted factory headers etc. It seems that the Whipple tune is more polished than the Edelbrock, based on what I read on these forums.

Again, I have to see this massive down low TQ difference the Edlebrock makes over the Whipple. I just don't see it. My Whipple makes over 520tq by 2700rpm...climbs to 580 by 4500-5000rpm and never drops below 500tq right to 8000rpm. This is just 11psi and pump gas. Very basic stuff.

 

[Torinate]

I can’t say for sure re factory headers and cats (never used them) but yes, the plan is sound.
If you find that the Lund tune is a little soft at the bottom, go PBD. 15* vs 12* at 3k makes a huge difference. 19* up top vs 17* is also pretty handy.
Cam timing/lambda is virtually identical between the two. Lund will drive more like stock though, to the point where I feel that if Ford themselves had tuned it, they likely couldn’t have done a better job.
That’s not intended to bash either company, it’s just a buyers guide of “what you could expect”.
They both do great work but they go about it slightly differently.

Thanks for that.

These are numbers from your logs I’m sure. Did you have any input into these or this is just how your tune turned out?

Do either of these adding timing when it can or are they “locked” in at those numbers?

On my NA Lund tune, I will see my KnockR - 2 to 4 so I know it’s adding timing. Wonder if these tunes do the same thing. Is the 19 vs 17 the max it will add up to?

Lund tune appears quite conservative. Then again, PBD doesn’t appear balls to the wall either. Amazing what just a little timing can do!

I know I do and many others appreciate this test tune journey you’ve been on!

Wonder what the timing would look like for e85 or a meth set up?

 

[Burkey]

Again, I have to see this massive down low TQ difference the Edlebrock makes over the Whipple. I just don't see it. My Whipple makes over 520tq by 2700rpm...climbs to 580 by 4500-5000rpm and never drops below 500tq right to 8000rpm. This is just 11psi and pump gas. Very basic stuff.

Here we go...
TLDR version:
Comparing results from dyno to Dyno, day to day, car to car is redundant.
How does it compare on the street where it actually matters for 90% of owners?

The long version:
I’ll preface this with an “each to their own” philosophy. My comments aren’t directed at you personally, but rather a broader stroke in the hope that this example might educate someone sitting at home, wondering WTF is going on here. I’m also hoping they won’t get caught up in the hype of the Whipple, unless of course they’re thinking BIG boost, e85, built engine, strip times etc etc. OR if they plan to just use the supplied tune and go with it, in which case, the Whipple may actually be a better proposition. Not sure, haven’t tried it.

With that out of the way...
Dyno’s are nothing more than tuning tools. To take the results from a different dyno/car/day/location/etc and attempt to compare it to another is ludicrous.
I can show you a workshop here in Australia where your 750 wouldn’t even make 600...and it wouldn’t even matter what kind of day you ran it.

Next, a 750rwhp car, at FULL weight (~4200lbs) should (I use that term very cautiously) trap around 139-140mph, assuming the conditions are as per the “standardised day” that the Dyno applied when it was run up and assuming a 17% drivetrain loss, which isn’t entirely unreasonable.
On pump 93 I feel like this just isn’t going to happen, but I’m happy to be proven wrong. So, if the Hp is wrong, so is the predicted torque....

Then we have DynoJet vs (insert other dyno brand here) and the inherent mismatch in the figures Vs Mustang/Mainline/DynoDynamics etc

Meanwhile, I’ve actually taken the time to swap a Gen 2 that was literally measured at 12psi, for an Edelbrock making 12psi or less, and it eats the Whipple everywhere except the 6-8k region, where I can’t feel any real difference between the two. Same car, same setup (other than blower), same tuner, and that’s giving the Whipple the advantage of the cooler winter air.

I haven’t taken it to the dyno, I don’t care what figures it produces.
The logs show the improvement and the passengers all agree. In fact, they nearly shit themselves,
I don’t know what else to say.
Opinions and research are great.
Empirical evidence is better.

 

[Burkey]

Thanks for that.

These are numbers from your logs I’m sure. Did you have any input into these or this is just how your tune turned out?

Do either of these adding timing when it can or are they “locked” in at those numbers?

On my NA Lund tune, I will see my KnockR - 2 to 4 so I know it’s adding timing. Wonder if these tunes do the same thing. Is the 19 vs 17 the max it will add up to?

Lund tune appears quite conservative. Then again, PBD doesn’t appear balls to the wall either. Amazing what just a little timing can do!

I know I do and many others appreciate this test tune journey you’ve been on!

Wonder what the timing would look like for e85 or a meth set up?

Zero input from me.
I asked Lund if they could deliver a little more, they weren’t keen. Such is life. That’s their business model.

Neither tune is necessarily locked to those numbers, although in saying that, it’s possible that they may have hit the actual limit of allowed timing advance within the tune/s. Hard to say without octane booster to prove where the timing is actually capped. The figures represent what each tune decided was appropriate for that time. They were literally back to backed. Same fuel, same day etc.

Lund is safe. Proper safe. If I blew the engine on Lund tune, I wouldn’t suspect the tune for a moment.
Not saying PBD is at the outer limits or that I’d necessarily be pointing the finger at them if it went awry, but it’s possible that I might be left wondering. It’s a gamble I’m willing to take. The reward (for me) is well worth it.
I like the way both companies go about their business.
Lund just make it a little easier for their clientele.

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