Trading a Mustang

[young at heart]

No one has any proof that this method actually results in a better deal. It’s shady and not the best way to develop a good relationship with your dealer, which in my opinion is the best way to get good deals in the future. This is how I got a new Bronco last fall for under MSRP plus an excellent trade in allowance.

Anyway, I started this thread to see if others were getting low-balled on Mustang trade allowances. While I appreciate the responses and diverse points of view, has anyone had much luck getting a reasonable trade in offer or trade difference?

Here’s proof: I spent my entire career as a franchised new car dealer and hired guys to hire and train guys to do their best to make it unclear to the customer what they were actually getting for their trade in. The reality of real wholesale dollars is just too harsh for the average buyer to deal with.

I wouldn’t call Cobra Jet’s thoughts a complete method for buying a car. There’s much more to it than that. I would call it a way for the buyer to educate himself as to how many dollars he is really realizing for his trade in. One can choose to be educated or remain in the dark.

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[Bulldog9]

Here’s proof: I spent my entire career as a franchised new car dealer and hired guys to hire and train guys to do their best to make it unclear to the customer what they were actually getting for their trade in. The reality of real wholesale dollars is just too harsh for the average buyer to deal with.

I wouldn’t call Cobra Jet’s thoughts a complete method for buying a car. There’s much more to it than that. I would call it a way for the buyer to educate himself as to how many dollars he is really realizing for his trade in. One can choose to be educated or remain in the dark.

Most important when buying a car is to know what you want to spend and stick to it. I've always walked away happy with the outcome and have gotten great deals.

Most important is being willing to walk away. Without that, you are toast.

What I really don't like is the recent trend of not being able to come to a final deal with the sales person. They are powerless, or that is the way the dealers play the game. Then there is the 'finance guy' who opens up his menu of 'options' . In 2006, I bought a Jeep Commander, and got 10K off MSRP and book on my trade (which needed $4k of work). I was thrilled with the sale, and as I literally bought the Jeep off the carrier, and needed to be prepped, this guy threw the whole book, undercoat, paint pro, carpet, seat treatment, service package, tint, accessories. My answer was NO. Finally he got frustrated and said 'come on pal, we gave you a great deal, give me something' I responded by leaning forward, taking the sales sheet off his desk, tore it in half and walked out. The head manager followed me out to my car to ask what happened. He promised to make it right, honored the deal, and when I picked up the truck the next day found they threw in tint on the front windows for my trouble.

The Jeep is still in the family, is my daughters car. I drove it till 2017 when I bought my Tundra.

When I bought the Bullitt, they tried similar, but this time it was a very attractive young lady trying for all the accessories. That was a pleasant experience that I may or may not have made last as long as possible, but I held strong and didn't buy anything. She was good at her job, lol.

 

[Marsalad]

Here’s proof: I spent my entire career as a franchised new car dealer and hired guys to hire and train guys to do their best to make it unclear to the customer what they were actually getting for their trade in. The reality of real wholesale dollars is just too harsh for the average buyer to deal with.

I wouldn’t call Cobra Jet’s thoughts a complete method for buying a car. There’s much more to it than that. I would call it a way for the buyer to educate himself as to how many dollars he is really realizing for his trade in. One can choose to be educated or remain in the dark.

Your statement does not offer proof of anything other than shady business practices. Perhaps to refute my assertion you should clarify that when customers used this method to “trick” the omnipotent car dealer they came out better than they would have by being honest from the start. If anything, your claim that the average buyer can’t deal with real wholesale dollars reinforces my point. The customer doesn’t need to be an expert on the inner workings of car sales to buy a car. They only need to research what they want to buy and what they want to trade. You deliberately clouded the numbers to mislead your customers. Based on your tactics the customer may never know the exact figures. On the other hand, a customer that doesn’t know what the real numbers are or doesn’t ask questions until they understand the deal probably shouldn’t be involved in such large purchases. Caveat Emptor and all that.

Furthermore, a few of the dealers I worked for utilized the methods you espouse. That’s dirty pool and a big part of why the traditional dealership model should (and probably will) disappear. There is a big difference between honest business practices that turn a profit and being the stereotypical “used car salesman” that you seem to have made a career out of.

 

[young at heart]

Your statement does not offer proof of anything other than shady business practices. Perhaps to refute my assertion you should clarify that when customers used this method to “trick” the omnipotent car dealer they came out better than they would have by being honest from the start. If anything, your claim that the average buyer can’t deal with real wholesale dollars reinforces my point. The customer doesn’t need to be an expert on the inner workings of car sales to buy a car. They only need to research what they want to buy and what they want to trade. You deliberately clouded the numbers to mislead your customers. Based on your tactics the customer may never know the exact figures. On the other hand, a customer that doesn’t know what the real numbers are or doesn’t ask questions until they understand the deal probably shouldn’t be involved in such large purchases. Caveat Emptor and all that.

Furthermore, a few of the dealers I worked for utilized the methods you espouse. That’s dirty pool and a big part of why the traditional dealership model should (and probably will) disappear. There is a big difference between honest business practices that turn a profit and being the stereotypical “used car salesman” that you seem to have made a career out of.

I’ll try to make this simple. Let’s say a dealer has a new car that lists for 20k and he wants to net 18k out of the car. Let’s further assume that the prospective customer has a trade in that’s worth 8k in actual cash wholesale dollars to the dealer. What’s the difference if the dealer says “OK, my car is 20k and I’ll give you 10k for your trade” and saying OK, my car is 20k but I’ll give you 2K discount and allow you 8k on your trade.” I’m pretty sure that either way the customer still owes the same 10k. This concept is known as overallowance and based on your claimed work history you should know exactly what it is and how it works. Hopefully this wasn’t too complicated.

Now, in your pontifications do you really see this as shady and dirty pool? The dealer has no moral or legal obligation to educate the customer beyond an honest presentation of the figures.

By the way, who was it earlier in this thread who was droning on about name calling and using absolutes? You may answer if you like or not, but I have no interest in trying to have an honest discussion with someone who seems to be only spoiling for an argument.

 

[Marsalad]

I’ll try to make this simple. Let’s say a dealer has a new car that lists for 20k and he wants to net 18k out of the car. Let’s further assume that the prospective customer has a trade in that’s worth 8k in actual cash wholesale dollars to the dealer. What’s the difference if the dealer says “OK, my car is 20k and I’ll give you 10k for your trade” and saying OK, my car is 20k but I’ll give you 2K discount and allow you 8k on your trade.” I’m pretty sure that either way the customer still owes the same 10k. This concept is known as overallowance and based on your claimed work history you should know exactly what it is and how it works. Hopefully this wasn’t too complicated.

Now, in your pontifications do you really see this as shady and dirty pool? The dealer has no moral or legal obligation to educate the customer beyond an honest presentation of the figures.

By the way, who was it earlier in this thread who was droning on about name calling and using absolutes? You may answer if you like or not, but I have no interest in trying to have an honest discussion with someone who seems to be only spoiling for an argument.

It was not my intention to insult you. If I did then I apologize. I would much rather have these types of discussion in person so intentions can be judged by body language and facial expression as well as vocal tone.

I do not wish to argue either. I asked you to clarify your assertion that the customer was better off by hiding their trade until after negotiations. I still do not feel you have done that.

 

[young at heart]

It was not my intention to insult you. If I did then I apologize. I would much rather have these types of discussion in person so intentions can be judged by body language and facial expression as well as vocal tone.

I do not wish to argue either. I asked you to clarify your assertion that the customer was better off by hiding their trade until after negotiations. I still do not feel you have done that.

It‘s easy, really, and I’m not being sarcastic or condescending. The customer is light years better off in so doing because it’s the only possible way he will know exactly how much he is actually getting for his trade in. Unless he’s with an unusual dealer who chooses to tell him, the customer is completely in the dark. He cannot make an educated decision as to how to proceed without knowing what his trade is really worth. Perhaps he will decide for example to sell his trade in privately and delay the new car purchase until he does so. But he can’t possibly make such a decision without knowing all the facts.

By any definition the dealer always has the upper hand in negotiations. If the customer is fully educated he may be able to even the playing field just a bit. I don’t think delaying introducing the trade in until he has the dealer’s best straight sale price is a huge transgression. In so doing he may even gain a little respect from the dealer and merit himself better and more equitable treatment. Whether we dealers or customers like it or not, the car buying experience is still often an adversarial situation. There are signs it’s changing, but until it’s universal I believe the customer has both the right and the obligation to educate himself in any reasonable manner he can. Only then can he begin to narrow down the massive advantage held by the dealer.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

 

[Bulldog9]

Quite by accident while buying my first new car after college (85 GTI) I negotiated for a great price, and sealed the deal. That night, my wife decided she didn't want to have 2 cars and I went back to get a price on the trade. Ended with a different sales guy, and I also negotiated for a great price on the trade with the used car manager. They annotated the paperwork, subtracted the trade, and tax difference, and we drove away happy.

Two days later, the manager calls me and cusses me out for ripping them off. I was confused, thinking I haggled fairly and squarely. He then informed me that they NEVER give top dollar on a trade AND significant discount, it is either or. At first I felt bad and thought about closing the gap, but he was so mad and irritated, and insulting, I told him to pound sand and that it was about time HE was screwed rather than the customer. I'm an honest hard working man, and believe in the Golden Rule, and don't want people to play games with me, so I never play them. I do negotiate hard, get good deals, and walk away if I cant make the deal I want.....

Needless to say I didn't service the car at that dealer ;-)

I'm surprised no one has talked about holdbacks, and incentives given to dealers for volume, special programs, etc. They have all sorts of tricks and hidden profit makers. That said, dealers make the most money on used car sales, accessories and service, rarely in new car sales. SMART dealers buy repeat customers and trust. My Tundra was bought while I was deployed, they gave me a great deal, stored the truck for me from August to December, and had it washed and ready for pickup. If I ever buy another Toyota, it will be from them, and they get all my referrals and many parts purchases.

 

[Cobra Jet]

It‘s easy, really, and I’m not being sarcastic or condescending. The customer is light years better off in so doing because it’s the only possible way he will know exactly how much he is actually getting for his trade in. Unless he’s with an unusual dealer who chooses to tell him, the customer is completely in the dark. He cannot make an educated decision as to how to proceed without knowing what his trade is really worth. Perhaps he will decide for example to sell his trade in privately and delay the new car purchase until he does so. But he can’t possibly make such a decision without knowing all the facts.

By any definition the dealer always has the upper hand in negotiations. If the customer is fully educated he may be able to even the playing field just a bit. I don’t think delaying introducing the trade in until he has the dealer’s best straight sale price is a huge transgression. In so doing he may even gain a little respect from the dealer and merit himself better and more equitable treatment. Whether we dealers or customers like it or not, the car buying experience is still often an adversarial situation. There are signs it’s changing, but until it’s universal I believe the customer has both the right and the obligation to educate himself in any reasonable manner he can. Only then can he begin to narrow down the massive advantage held by the dealer.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

Stated very well.

As in my prior post - most Dealers want to know if the Customer has a trade, and the sole reason is - they can then play the card/shill game with the Customer by jerking around the price on THEIR vehicle AND your trade in. Just as @young at heart explained in his prior response with the example figures he used.

If the Dealer doesn’t know you have a trade, they WANT to make a sale. Negotiating still occurs, BUT in many instances the Customer has a better chance of getting a better deal up front without a trade - because there’s no other values to be scrambled into the negotiating, the Consumer can work for the Dealer’s absolute best deal using only THEIR vehicle.

It works, it’s not BS. The mindset that this type of Consumer tactic isn’t “fair”, isn’t making friends with the Salesman, or isn’t establishing some kind of future relationship with a Car Dealer is not the way to shop for any major purchase (car, house, boat, motorcycle, etc). YOU the Consumer are trying to get THE absolute best price for YOU. You’re not there to make friends, or extend future relationships because you’re going to be all soft when buying X from that Salesperson or Business Entity. Your sole purpose is to score the absolute best deal for YOU, period.

Dealerships have MANY ways of intermingling all sorts of hidden “deals” or playing with their vehicle $, your vehicle $ AND if it comes down to it, the financing as far as % rates, etc. They will find ANY WAY to make you feel good that you think you’re getting a deal, when you’re not because they pulled their winning cards and mashed figures to the point that you really got shafted instead.

Dealerships are not in it to loose $$$, they will beat the consumer almost every single time, IF the Consumer isn’t well equipped.

They can’t beat the Consumer when they have given their lowest out the door price, it’s agreed and worked up - then the consumer springs a whammy like they now have a trade in. Now the Dealership is in your freaking palms., because NOW they have to reduce the previously agreed sale down by the trade AND that affects taxes too. It scrambled their deal and now they could have lost $$$$ on their vehicle, because without that initial trade, they were “winning”. Throw the trade in, it blows them out of the water because either the Consumer walks and they lose the sale, OR they have to give $$$ for the trade - but their vehicle was already lowered to their “best deal” BEFORE the trade.

Had the customer told them right out front - I have a trade, the Dealer knows right then and there, they can royally screw with this Shemp “looking for a good deal”, because he’s revealed all his cards and they can shill the shit out of the numbers…

That’s fact.

There’s nothing wrong at all, ethically or morally telling a Dealership that you don’t have a trade, then springing it on them later. They’re using all sorts of “tricks” to get the most $$$$ out of the Consumer, so what’s the difference if the Consumer gets the upper hand? Jeopardy of future Dealer/Customer relationship - LMAO…. Who cares - my goal is to get THE best “ME” price, that’s it.

@KingKona is right too. A Dealer will NEVER pay any Consumer more $$$ or pay over any “graded” vehicle value as seen on KBB, or any other type of evaluator site. They will always come in lower on a trade in value, even if your vehicle is in mint/excellent condition with below average miles.. IF a Dealer has met or paid over what you see on any type of vehicle evaluator site, they’re F’ing you somewhere else in the deal by transposing figures, or on the back end in the financing…. The Dealer ISN’T losing $ and they’re not paying you bank for a trade as much as one would like to imagine.

 

[Marsalad]

It‘s easy, really, and I’m not being sarcastic or condescending. The customer is light years better off in so doing because it’s the only possible way he will know exactly how much he is actually getting for his trade in. Unless he’s with an unusual dealer who chooses to tell him, the customer is completely in the dark. He cannot make an educated decision as to how to proceed without knowing what his trade is really worth. Perhaps he will decide for example to sell his trade in privately and delay the new car purchase until he does so. But he can’t possibly make such a decision without knowing all the facts.

By any definition the dealer always has the upper hand in negotiations. If the customer is fully educated he may be able to even the playing field just a bit. I don’t think delaying introducing the trade in until he has the dealer’s best straight sale price is a huge transgression. In so doing he may even gain a little respect from the dealer and merit himself better and more equitable treatment. Whether we dealers or customers like it or not, the car buying experience is still often an adversarial situation. There are signs it’s changing, but until it’s universal I believe the customer has both the right and the obligation to educate himself in any reasonable manner he can. Only then can he begin to narrow down the massive advantage held by the dealer.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. It seems as if we are talking about two different aspects of negotiation. My specific question is whether or not the customer is BETTER OFF by introducing the trade after a deal has been struck. By this I mean does the customer realize a higher ACV by using this method. For example, if the trade were revealed in the beginning and the called the trade at $10k actual cash value against your $20k car for a $10k difference, would the customer have gotten $12k for the trade against the same $20k selling price ($8k difference) therefor gaining $2000 in their favor?

My contention is that the difference would have been very close to ten grand either way.

I get what you are saying about the customer never really knowing what they are getting for their trade because they don’t know the actual cost to the dealer of the vehicle they are buying nor they know much about dealer accounting practices. I will admit that my knowledge of dealer accounting is rudimentary at best.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the dealer has the upper hand in the negotiation process because they are not compelled or required to give in to the customer’s demands. Ultimately if the seller isn’t happy with the deal they can just say no. Someone else will buy the car. As for the buyer, even more so in today’s limited market, if they don’t like the deal they don’t get the new vehicle they want. The dealer usually wins because the customer’s desire overpowers their sensibility.

All that being said, has anyone out there been “low balled” when trying to trade a Mustang recently?

 

[Marsalad]

Stated very well.

As in my prior post - most Dealers want to know if the Customer has a trade, and the sole reason is - they can then play the card/shill game with the Customer by jerking around the price on THEIR vehicle AND your trade in. Just as @young at heart explained in his prior response with the example figures he used.

If the Dealer doesn’t know you have a trade, they WANT to make a sale. Negotiating still occurs, BUT in many instances the Customer has a better chance of getting a better deal up front without a trade - because there’s no other values to be scrambled into the negotiating, the Consumer can work for the Dealer’s absolute best deal using only THEIR vehicle.

It works, it’s not BS. The mindset that this type of Consumer tactic isn’t “fair”, isn’t making friends with the Salesman, or isn’t establishing some kind of future relationship with a Car Dealer is not the way to shop for any major purchase (car, house, boat, motorcycle, etc). YOU the Consumer are trying to get THE absolute best price for YOU. You’re not there to make friends, or extend future relationships because you’re going to be all soft when buying X from that Salesperson or Business Entity. Your sole purpose is to score the absolute best deal for YOU, period.

Dealerships have MANY ways of intermingling all sorts of hidden “deals” or playing with their vehicle $, your vehicle $ AND if it comes down to it, the financing as far as % rates, etc. They will find ANY WAY to make you feel good that you think you’re getting a deal, when you’re not because they pulled their winning cards and mashed figures to the point that you really got shafted instead.

Dealerships are not in it to loose $$$, they will beat the consumer almost every single time, IF the Consumer isn’t well equipped.

They can’t beat the Consumer when they have given their lowest out the door price, it’s agreed and worked up - then the consumer springs a whammy like they now have a trade in. Now the Dealership is in your freaking palms., because NOW they have to reduce the previously agreed sale down by the trade AND that affects taxes too. It scrambled their deal and now they could have lost $$$$ on their vehicle, because without that initial trade, they were “winning”. Throw the trade in, it blows them out of the water because either the Consumer walks and they lose the sale, OR they have to give $$$ for the trade - but their vehicle was already lowered to their “best deal” BEFORE the trade.

Had the customer told them right out front - I have a trade, the Dealer knows right then and there, they can royally screw with this Shemp “looking for a good deal”, because he’s revealed all his cards and they can shill the shit out of the numbers…

That’s fact.

There’s nothing wrong at all, ethically or morally telling a Dealership that you don’t have a trade, then springing it on them later. They’re using all sorts of “tricks” to get the most $$$$ out of the Consumer, so what’s the difference if the Consumer gets the upper hand? Jeopardy of future Dealer/Customer relationship - LMAO…. Who cares - my goal is to get THE best “ME” price, that’s it.

@KingKona is right too. A Dealer will NEVER pay any Consumer more $$$ or pay over any “graded” vehicle value as seen on KBB, or any other type of evaluator site. They will always come in lower on a trade in vakue, even if your vehicle is in mint/excellent condition with below average miles.. IF a Dealer has met or paid over what you see on any type of vehicle evaluator site, they’re F’ing you somewhere else in the deal by transposing figures, or on the back end in the financing…. The Dealer ISN’T losing $ and they’re not paying you bank for a trade as much as one would like to imagine.

Excellent explanation. I agree completely with everything you have said about the dealer side of negotiation. I agree that the dealer will do anything possible to make money at every aspect of the process. When I purchase a vehicle, and I have averaged three new cars PER YEAR for the last ten years, I do all my research beforehand and I do not buy any fluff such as undercoating or extended warranties. I know what my go/no go number is well before I set foot in a dealership. I don’t hold back my trade until the end because I personally feel that is misleading on my part and it also delays the whole process. The dealership will make their money either way. I’m fine with that because they are running a business and I actually like car dealerships. I don’t like low-ball trade offers and that is what this thread was supposed to be about. I’ve been buying cars since the used car managers would whip out their tattered golden NADA guide and flip through the pages “booking out” my 1983 Ford Escort. I had already been to the library (!) and knew my car’s book value. It’s not much different than going online and getting an idea what your car should be worth. Just now I can do it in my underwear without anyone giving me dirty looks and asking me to leave.

As far as establishing an honest relationship with a dealer, it is my opinion that doing so allows the customer a greater level of “fair treatment” in the future. That could mean intangibles like going to the head of the line for service, free loaner cars, etc. or more importantly less drama during future negotiations. Personally I feel that I have done very well using my method of being educated and prepared before going to the dealership and clearly stating what my intentions and expectations were. I’m just a regular guy with a decent blue collar job plus the family and house. I am not a rich man yet my neighbors probably think I’m a drug dealer (or maybe TikTok star) based on the constant rotation of new cars in my driveway. My purchasing tactics have been very successful as far as I’m concerned.

Anyway, can anyone honestly tell me that the ACV of the trade increases if the trade is revealed after negotiation? That was my question. I still believe the trade difference would be essentially the same either way.

 

[young at heart]

Marsala, I never meant to imply that withholding the trade would have any bearing on the ACV one way or the other and I don’t think I said as much. There are so many variables that figure into an appraisal that it’s impossible to say whether or not that would have any impact. I doubt that it would, all other factors being equal.

My only contention from the start is simply that a fully educated customer stands a better chance against the dealer, and knowing the real ACV of his trade is a large part of that customer’s education.

 

[Marsalad]

Understood. Thank you. I got the feeling we were talking about two different things. I’ve heard the advice to hold your trade until the end many times and I’ve disagreed with that approach. I was looking for input from others as to whether or not it actually worked in favor of the buyer.

 

[Hack]

I'm surprised someone would even ask this as a serious question. Yes of course if you try to trade a Mustang (or any other car) at a dealer they will give you an offer that is low. That's how they make money. You have to know what the car is worth and push for them to give you more for it.

 

[Marsalad]

I guess I should have made my question more clear.

In the current market with used car prices much higher than normal, which would lead one to believe that trade in values would be strong, has anyone been offered well under “market value” for their Mustang?

It was not supposed to be a discussion about general car dealer practices or even the car buying process.

I received firm offers ranging from $27k to $41k over a two month period. If you take out the $41k offer the next highest was $35k from a Ford dealer.
I’ve been offered “crazy money” for my other vehicles during this time. Nothing I own is electric or hybrid or even close to what would be considered efficient. It’s only the Mustang that has been shunned.

If you haven’t tried to trade a Mustang (only) in the past few months then I appreciate your opinions but my original question hasn’t yet been answered.

 

[YankeeVol]

At least where I work, it doesn’t matter if you say you have a trade when we start or after. It’s worth what it’s worth.

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