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Thinking about going big turbo? Spool Data.

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Joe_Stang

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I also would love to hear a video of the spool on a car with stock exhaust lol. As that is what I will be running with it other then a downpipe. I'm hoping it sounds mean and the spool is loud.
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So in your opinion then Adam, or actually in your experience with dyno tuning these compressors, which one made more power on pump gas and does that equate to making more power once your meth kit is added to the equation?
I honestly don't have a preference on looks of the kit, so Im not looking to pick a turbo kit based on "stealthyness" of it. Im more into making really good power safely. I want to get to the point of making top power on stock internals and that is my goal. along with longevity of the engine/turbo ofcourse.
Thanks for answering these questions. Im trying to make a decisions but Im trying to get most info as I can on everything.
On a side note: I saw a video of the MAP turbo and that thing sounded amazing spooling.. does that Vargas sound similar?
They are all going to hit the same limit on pump gas really, again the issue is not the turbo's being able to make the power it is the octane of the fuel allowing the power. It was pushing it on 93oct and 380whp. I could of made more, but safely I like to stick to 370-380whp. Once you get some good fuel in there the next problem you run into is the stock fuel system running out. I have been able to make 440whp/440wtq on my vehicle with the stock fuel system and 100oct. On Pump gas I would cut it out at 380-385.

I have no idea what the Vargas sounds like, however I doubt it is going to sound similar as the MAP turbo kits move a lot more air during spool and have 4" inlets.

Top end power is always going to be sub-par on these vehicles because of the engine dynamics. The head sucks, and the camshafts suck too lol.
 

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Is it possible to see the original plots but have only the 93 octane results for each respective turbo?
 
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Is it possible to see the original plots but have only the 93 octane results for each respective turbo?
This thread is focused on spool not overall power numbers as spool is the most asked question from customers when they are in the market for a turbo kit/upgraded turbo.

All the graphs posted are not the "MAX POWER" that these turbo's can make they are graphs I pulled showing the best spool results.

Every big turbo kit car on pump gas is going to be limited to 400whp and under.
 

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Thank you!
Yeah i saw but thats when i confuse things, some of those charts on other turbos dont dive like that, im assuming all of these are on stock heads, so is it back preasure like vvt said?
 

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Adam, can you tell us if you are holding power back on any off these fast spooling turbo's at low rpm's? I guess what I am trying to figure out is do any of these spool fast enough to cause LSPI issues on pump gas? I'd like a fast spooling turbo, but what good is it if you have to hold back power like the stock turbo?
 

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Adam answered that question just today. Maybe in another thread. He said it is because the stock head and cams are to restrictive.

- - Post #4 in this thread - -
How can it be the head or cams, when all the motors are stock. It's not the head or the cams causing the 7163 to fall off up top. It's the mixed flow turbine wheel, and tight twin scroll housing. This is turbocharging 101. If it was the head, and the cams you would see every turbo no matter what it's size falling off up top. Is the head restrictive, yes, are the cams begging to be replaced, also yes, but neither of those are the reason the 7163 falls off up top. Turbos are always a trade off, look at the way the 7163 spools, that tells you all you need to know, tight turbine twin scroll housing, and less mass for the exhaust energy to spin. You want to stock like spool, and a tapering power curve up top, run a smaller turbo. You want less tq down low, but a car that pulls hard to redline go with a bigger turbo, or one with a larger AR turbine housing. The 7163 is honestly the best spooling option, but it's basically out of breath up top on this motor at those levels. Of course we are biased, but stage 2 is the best compromise of spool, and top end power, at 1/3-1/2 the price of the competition. Pretty hard to beat
 

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We've got a bunch of charts up for our various turbo options, but here is another for the 7163 showcasing spool.

This was with a stock engine on 94/91 octane blend. Twinscroll flange adapter.

anthony

Sorry in advance for my super high quality photo. Pdf also attached.
Screenshot_2016-03-16-00-51-04.webp
 

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When making spool only comparisons, it's very difficult to compare graphs from a dynojet, and a Mustang. The Mustang can put a much heaiver load on the car which can increase spool to near street levels on the dyno, where the Dynojet even with the Eddy Current has a hard time simulating those same loads. This makes it tough to get an apples to apples comparison between the two dynos
 
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Yeah i saw but thats when i confuse things, some of those charts on other turbos dont dive like that, im assuming all of these are on stock heads, so is it back preasure like vvt said?
When the amount of air coming in exceeds what the engine can process you get backpressure in the charge system which will slow the turbo down and decrease boost. The same turbo I have on my car on a Subaru holds 35psi to redline no problem and there is no torque dropoff. On my car boost starts to drop and that is when the torque curve plummets.

Another issue is the factory valvetrain is VERY soft and it causes valve float/valve timing issues. This is why you see some very messy upper RPM dynographs. With a ported head and valvetrain the torque drop wasn't existent.

Here is a stock head versus ported head. The green graph is cleaner up top until the throttle closed (6300rpms) this is when I ran into the factory hardcoded load issues and were were having issues with the fueling down load which was resolved. As you can see torque wanted to stay flat and even go up when the throttle started to close. (Throttle closures increase torque btw).



Adam, can you tell us if you are holding power back on any off these fast spooling turbo's at low rpm's? I guess what I am trying to figure out is do any of these spool fast enough to cause LSPI issues on pump gas? I'd like a fast spooling turbo, but what good is it if you have to hold back power like the stock turbo?
Only one being held back is the Full-Race kit on my car. I have the boost coming on a little less than what it is capable of but only because I was afraid of traction issues not LSPI. Which, traction was an issue when I went to Florida for the NMRA event. I had 6% slip in 3rd gear and it stemmed from first having too much torque and short gear. I need a taller tire as well and some more suspension.

I can make the Full-Race kit spool wherever I like honestly, but I chose to showcase what it can do. The rest of the turbos on that are spooling as fast as they possibly can. That is the downside of an open scroll turbo. The PLUS side of an open scroll turbo is smoother boost plots. You don't feel the difference in the car but when looking at boost curves in datalogs you can tell which one is TS and which is OS.

How can it be the head or cams, when all the motors are stock. It's not the head or the cams causing the 7163 to fall off up top. It's the mixed flow turbine wheel, and tight twin scroll housing. This is turbocharging 101. If it was the head, and the cams you would see every turbo no matter what it's size falling off up top. Is the head restrictive, yes, are the cams begging to be replaced, also yes, but neither of those are the reason the 7163 falls off up top. Turbos are always a trade off, look at the way the 7163 spools, that tells you all you need to know, tight turbine twin scroll housing, and less mass for the exhaust energy to spin. You want to stock like spool, and a tapering power curve up top, run a smaller turbo. You want less tq down low, but a car that pulls hard to redline go with a bigger turbo, or one with a larger AR turbine housing. The 7163 is honestly the best spooling option, but it's basically out of breath up top on this motor at those levels. Of course we are biased, but stage 2 is the best compromise of spool, and top end power, at 1/3-1/2 the price of the competition. Pretty hard to beat
If the turbo is too smaller it will be effected more. The 5858 moves more air than the 7163 when at full spool. When boost drops torque is going to drop, that is turbocharged engines 101.

Here is a torque graph of the Vargas Stage 2 vs 7163EFR vs MAP 5858. As you can see they all start to drop torque around the same RPM. The EFR and your Stage 2 have almost identical torque drop. The 5858 holds it more because it flows more air and can counter against backpressure in the charge system.





We've got a bunch of charts up for our various turbo options, but here is another for the 7163 showcasing spool.

This was with a stock engine on 94/91 octane blend. Twinscroll flange adapter.

anthony

Sorry in advance for my super high quality photo. Pdf also attached.
Thank you for sharing!

When making spool only comparisons, it's very difficult to compare graphs from a dynojet, and a Mustang. The Mustang can put a much heaiver load on the car which can increase spool to near street levels on the dyno, where the Dynojet even with the Eddy Current has a hard time simulating those same loads. This makes it tough to get an apples to apples comparison between the two dynos
Agreed, dynojet unloaded is what I'm using for comparison to keep things as even as possible. There are ALWAYS going to be variances.
 

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Just for anyone curious about the 7163 compared to even smaller EFR turbos, and a few larger ones, as well as some Garretts. This comparison is what directly caused us to start putting 7163's on things, of all the turbos on the market (any market) its my favorite option when doing custom kits in the 500-550WHP range. For what it flows, its spool it unmatched, but the second you put another EFR on the car, things will change quickly.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/borg-warner-efr-7163-test-and-tune/
 

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Here ya go.

From a bit over a year ago --

7163 Twinscroll on a stock engine. 91/94 Octane Blend ~24PSI-- from this thread http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17631

If we are going to be comparing spool characteristics from various turbo systems (with this thread not being about dyno numbers), wouldn't it be best to post up data logs?

~anthony
EB2_wm_zpsc7686194.webp
 

VargasTurboTech

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Here ya go.

From a bit over a year ago --

7163 Twinscroll on a stock engine. 91/94 Octane Blend ~24PSI-- from this thread http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17631
Exactly, this turbo kicks ass, as far as spool, runs out of breath pretty quick, but its a spool monster. Awesome graph!

Soon as you get away from it to another EFR, etc. Expect at least 500-600RPM spool lost, the mixed flow turbine is doing exactly what its designed to do, which is provide good time to TQ
 
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Here ya go.

From a bit over a year ago --

7163 Twinscroll on a stock engine. 91/94 Octane Blend ~24PSI-- from this thread http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17631

If we are going to be comparing spool characteristics from various turbo systems (with this thread not being about dyno numbers), wouldn't it be best to post up data logs?

~anthony

I'm not sure what additional information you want shared with datalogs, but feel free to post whatever you like. This is a educational post not a what you should buy or what is the best. It is just sharing information that we have. any of the vehicles that I tuned are noted on the dynographs.
 

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Here ya go.

From a bit over a year ago --

7163 Twinscroll on a stock engine. 91/94 Octane Blend ~24PSI-- from this thread http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17631

If we are going to be comparing spool characteristics from various turbo systems (with this thread not being about dyno numbers), wouldn't it be best to post up data logs?

~anthony
Good post, I didnt know you guys did a kit for the EFR 7163, a lot of guys on here want those big #s and you did this kit over a year ago, pretty cool, and your local to me.
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