Thinking about going big turbo? Spool Data.

[Anthony@FFtec]

I'm not sure what additional information you want shared with datalogs, but feel free to post whatever you like. This is a educational post not a what you should buy or what is the best. It is just sharing information that we have. any of the vehicles that I tuned are noted on the dynographs.

I just think that if we want to truly display spool characteristics, a datalog with boost, and RPM plotted would display this very well.

I'll see what I've got!

Anthony

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[Ecoboosted15]

Any graphs out there showing the ball bearing vs journal bearing 5862 like the one MAP sells? I would like to see the spool difference on both of those please. I think the 7163 is definitely the spool king but it might be abit out of my price range so I'm trying to find the better spooling turbo from Vargas stage 2 or MAP Ball bearing 5862.

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

I am working on some exciting ecoboost projects right now. Full-Race is fully committed to this platform. its 11pm and I don’t have a lot of time to post here, but I needed to add my $0.02. First of all, props to Adam at Tune+. The guy is knowledgeable, experienced and passionate beyond belief for ecoboost performance. He tunes a variety of different setups and shares those results with the public. That is rare in almost any automotive community. No surprise he is trusted.

Second, I love the s550 mustang ecoboost. This car made me a mustang fan for the rest of my life. I go to sleep thinking about ways to tweak the engine, drivetrain, suspension and turbos. When I travel, I rent a mustang ecoboost so I can still be around one. Mustang EcoBoost 2.3L is a great vehicle with big beefy drivetrain and a solid bottom end. It isnt a turbo vtec Honda, nor a 2jz Supra and the turbo must be sized differently. A 3350lb 4cyl mustang is NOT fun to drive with turbo lag. here is ford's opinion on the twinscroll debate applied to mustang:

[ame]

I agree. my opinon:

->For drag racers that want the cheapest biggest turbo – that is openscroll. and its usually laggy. Not much fun to drive on the street. Go WOT below 3000rpm and get meh. Engineering budgets may have been tight, so the compressor / turbine wheels may not have been mapped or optimized, and shaft motion may not be known. Designed and manufactured in small production volumes. That is most aftermarket turbos (precision, etc) consist of today. Producing a twinscroll turbine housing with divorced wastegate requires very expensive tooling compared to openscroll single wastegate.

->For mustang enthusiasts who want legendary-mustang powerband with reliability and great midrange torque… a twinscroll EFR is how to do it. Twinscroll is more difficult to engineer and manufacture, no question. In my experience, only a top tier OEM turbo supplier can get twinscroll production right. This is why Full-Race does not make our own “turbos”. We partner with major OEM manufacturers. My team prototyped twinscroll and singlescroll turbos on our mustang and drove them. the difference behind the wheel, as felt from the drivers seat is huge. Dyno charts on the internet do not do this justice.

Our parts aren’t for everyone. The kit is a top mount EFR, and definitely will not look stock. Any mods you purchased previously are probably not going to work (intake, downpipe) -- this is the same for every other car we make an EFR to fit. However, the reliability and performance of a twinscroll EFR7163 and 7670 on our kit with mustang 2.3L ecoboost is tough to beat. The powerband is phenomenal, and the turbo is more reliable than OEM. That’s why every indycar team unanimously agreed to run them, and experienced >zero< turbo failures since 2010: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...rs-continue-winning-reputation-230027121.html

each car should be tuned for their modifications, location, and fuel.

Agree

They are all going to hit the same limit on pump gas really, again the issue is not the turbo's being able to make the power it is the octane of the fuel allowing the power. It was pushing it on 93oct and 380whp. I could of made more, but safely I like to stick to 370-380whp.

Agree

I can make the Full-Race kit spool wherever I like honestly, but I chose to showcase what it can do. The rest of the turbos on that are spooling as fast as they possibly can. That is the downside of an open scroll turbo. The PLUS side of an open scroll turbo is smoother boost plots. You don't feel the difference in the car but when looking at boost curves in datalogs you can tell which one is TS and which is OS…When boost drops torque is going to drop

Agree

What do you think a ported head, lets say MAP stage 5, with a stock turbo would look like?

The OEM cams are low lift and low duration, therefore simply porting will not flow considerably more. In my experience, the head must be ported to match the cams on this engine. And lets not forget we are still octane limited if talking pump gas #s

It seems to be spooling faster than every kit except the 7163 which is on 100 octane. It's clearly flowing more than the 7163 as its holding more power and tq to redline on simple E30 mix.. It proves for a turbo that is flowing as much or more than the bigger MAP kits, it's spooling better

that sounds pretty impressive. Do you have a compressor map posted on this? What size compressor and turbine wheel inducers/exducers are we talking about here? It sounds like you casted a singlescroll turbine housing? Sorry I am unclear

That's back pressure coming up, turbo can't flow up top with that twin scroll adapter / manifold. The 7163 is a very similar sized turbo to our stage 2 As far as wheels. But as you can see the turbine side is restricive up top, causing power to drop off

Respectfully disagree. I believe the 2.3L ecoboost cyl head (which flows 140cfm!), small cams, soft valvesprings and pump octane (knock limitation) are the factors - long before the 63mm turbine in a t4 twinscroll 0.80 ar will hold you back. Its actually a pretty impressive motor all things considered. As you know, not many stock 4cyl engines with stock fuel systems can touch this power level…

You want to stock like spool, and a tapering power curve up top, run a smaller turbo. You want less tq down low, but a car that pulls hard to redline go with a bigger turbo, or one with a larger AR turbine housing.

we definitely agree on this. However im pretty stuck on the whole twinscroll thing. My preference is Twinscroll T4 0.80 a/r for spool bias. Twinscroll T4 0.92 a/r for top end bias. but dont lose the twinscroll

I also would love to hear a video of the spool on a car with stock exhaust lol. As that is what I will be running with it other then a downpipe. I'm hoping it sounds mean and the spool is loud.

It makes no sense to run stock exhaust with an upgraded turbo. the stock exhaust is 2.25” inlet, bad idea for bigger turbo.

 

[PRG3k]

Do we have any spool data comparing the two Vargas turbos? I know it won't flow as much but I'd like to see how fast the stage 1 spins up compared to stage 2, which seems to get well away from the fast spool I love about this car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fast64ranchero]

I'd like to see Full Race kit with a EFR 7670 TS, Adam?

 

[Newedge713]

Thats' dope but the biggest Turbo i have seen on a Ecoboost Mustang was a 75 MM it made 900HP

 

[Yellowjacket]

I am working on some exciting ecoboost projects right now. Full-Race is fully committed to this platform. its 11pm and I don’t have a lot of time to post here, but I needed to add my $0.02. First of all, props to Adam at Tune+. The guy is knowledgeable, experienced and passionate beyond belief for ecoboost performance. He tunes a variety of different setups and shares those results with the public. That is rare in almost any automotive community. No surprise he is trusted.

Second, I love the s550 mustang ecoboost. This car made me a mustang fan for the rest of my life. I go to sleep thinking about ways to tweak the engine, drivetrain, suspension and turbos. When I travel, I rent a mustang ecoboost so I can still be around one. Mustang EcoBoost 2.3L is a great vehicle with big beefy drivetrain and a solid bottom end. It isnt a turbo vtec Honda, nor a 2jz Supra and the turbo must be sized differently. A 3350lb 4cyl mustang is NOT fun to drive with turbo lag. here is ford's opinion on the twinscroll debate applied to mustang:

->For mustang enthusiasts who want legendary-mustang powerband with reliability and great midrange torque… a twinscroll EFR is how to do it. Twinscroll is more difficult to engineer and manufacture, no question. In my experience, only a top tier OEM turbo supplier can get twinscroll production right. This is why Full-Race does not make our own “turbos”. We partner with major OEM manufacturers. My team prototyped twinscroll and singlescroll turbos on our mustang and drove them. the difference behind the wheel, as felt from the drivers seat is huge. Dyno charts on the internet do not do this justice.

Our parts aren’t for everyone. The kit is a top mount EFR, and definitely will not look stock. Any mods you purchased previously are probably not going to work (intake, downpipe) -- this is the same for every other car we make an EFR to fit. However, the reliability and performance of a twinscroll EFR7163 and 7670 on our kit with mustang 2.3L ecoboost is tough to beat. The powerband is phenomenal, and the turbo is more reliable than OEM. That’s why every indycar team unanimously agreed to run them, and experienced >zero< turbo failures since 2010:
The OEM cams are low lift and low duration, therefore simply porting will not flow considerably more. In my experience, the head must be ported to match the cams on this engine. And lets not forget we are still octane limited if talking pump gas #s



Respectfully disagree. I believe the 2.3L ecoboost cyl head (which flows 140cfm!), small cams, soft valvesprings and pump octane (knock limitation) are the factors - long before the 63mm turbine in a t4 twinscroll 0.80 ar will hold you back. Its actually a pretty impressive motor all things considered. As you know, not many stock 4cyl engines with stock fuel systems can touch this power level…


It makes no sense to run stock exhaust with an upgraded turbo. the stock exhaust is 2.25” inlet, bad idea for bigger turbo.

This! Thanks Geoff and it was nice to see your kind words for Adam. He has done a lot for this Mustang community! Respect to all the vendors that offer helpful advice and information.
Completely agree on twin-scroll for the Mustang Ecoboost if you are not track focused and use it as a DD.

Cams have been mentioned several times. Is full-race working on an improved cam? Is anyone? Seems cams are a restriction with no solution yet.
Lastly, am I reading correctly that for a DD using only 93, one should never expect more than 400hp/tq with any of the turbos and ported heads etc??

 

[Tune+]

Do we have any spool data comparing the two Vargas turbos? I know it won't flow as much but I'd like to see how fast the stage 1 spins up compared to stage 2, which seems to get well away from the fast spool I love about this car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The stage 1 spools the same as stock so I can overlay a stock versus a stage 2 if you would like.

I'd like to see Full Race kit with a EFR 7670 TS, Adam?

Waiting on my 7670 from Full-Race, hope to have it next week.

Thats' dope but the biggest Turbo i have seen on a Ecoboost Mustang was a 75 MM it made 900HP

A. It wasn't an Ecoboost
B. You didn't see it make any power, that car was put together for Hype with a DURATEC 2.5L in it which is NOT an Ecoboost engine that has Direct Injection limitation. That car has yet to prove that it runs, let alone make any power.
C. This really doesn't provide any education to this post as you provided no data, well because there is none. Haha.

:cheers:

This! Thanks Geoff and it was nice to see your kind words for Adam. He has done a lot for this Mustang community! Respect to all the vendors that offer helpful advice and information.
Completely agree on twin-scroll for the Mustang Ecoboost if you are not track focused and use it as a DD.

Cams have been mentioned several times. Is full-race working on an improved cam? Is anyone? Seems cams are a restriction with no solution yet.
Lastly, am I reading correctly that for a DD using only 93, one should never expect more than 400hp/tq with any of the turbos and ported heads etc??

Correct, on 93 I would never expect more than 400whp out of this engine without a built motor, head, and additional fuel system. Doing a ported head stresses out the fuel system more and makes it come up even shorter so with a ported head and an upgraded turbo you will need AUX fueling no matter what.



Geoff - Thank you for taking the time to chime in, I know you are very busy especially when we are brainstorming everyday on a million different ideas haha. I appreciate the kind words and support!

 

[apx632]

This thread has been a great read and has helped me narrow my options for in the future. The Full-Race kit is a very nice set up. And the Vargas Stage 2 intrigues me a lot because I can literally make my car a sleeper since it is stock appearing. SO many options!

 

[Ecoboosted15]

Could I make suggestion regarding spool rates and such...
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to post the RPM plot showing Boost levels instead of showing tons of torque and horse power levels plotted on the dyno sheet?
Like it should be easier to read how fast boost ramps up since it will show the RPM range
I don't know.. just my opinion, otherwise this becomes a "X turbo makes more power then Y turbo"
Im thinking showing how fast a turbo builds boost makes it easier to explain which turbo spools faster right?

 

[Tune+]

Could I make suggestion regarding spool rates and such...
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to post the RPM plot showing Boost levels instead of showing tons of torque and horse power levels plotted on the dyno sheet?
Like it should be easier to read how fast boost ramps up since it will show the RPM range
I don't know.. just my opinion, otherwise this becomes a "X turbo makes more power then Y turbo"
Im thinking showing how fast a turbo builds boost makes it easier to explain which turbo spools faster right?

The torque graph is boost, you aren't getting any torque without boost. Where you see peak torque hit, is where peak spool is hit.

 

[Ecoboosted15]

ok, I see your reasoning behind it, but isn't it possible for a turbo to be already pushing say 23.5 psi on our cars and yet torque still be climbing on the dyno sheets due to the RPM still needing it to be higher in the powerband due to the turbo being electronically waste gate controlled and keeping it at that psi level?
Hopefully Im making the point across on to what I mean.

 

[Tune+]

ok, I see your reasoning behind it, but isn't it possible for a turbo to be already pushing say 23.5 psi on our cars and yet torque still be climbing on the dyno sheets due to the RPM still needing it to be higher in the powerband due to the turbo being electronically waste gate controlled and keeping it at that psi level?
Hopefully Im making the point across on to what I mean.

Little hard to follow what you are trying to say. Peak torque is always going to be at peak boost, if you are holding that boost all the way to redline the torque will either stay flat or drop if the motor cannot continue to produce torque/process positive pressure.

 

[Newedge713]

The stage 1 spools the same as stock so I can overlay a stock versus a stage 2 if you would like.



Waiting on my 7670 from Full-Race, hope to have it next week.



A. It wasn't an Ecoboost
B. You didn't see it make any power, that car was put together for Hype with a DURATEC 2.5L in it which is NOT an Ecoboost engine that has Direct Injection limitation. That car has yet to prove that it runs, let alone make any power.
C. This really doesn't provide any education to this post as you provided no data, well because there is none. Haha.

:cheers:




Correct, on 93 I would never expect more than 400whp out of this engine without a built motor, head, and additional fuel system. Doing a ported head stresses out the fuel system more and makes it come up even shorter so with a ported head and an upgraded turbo you will need AUX fueling no matter what.



Geoff - Thank you for taking the time to chime in, I know you are very busy especially when we are brainstorming everyday on a million different ideas haha. I appreciate the kind words and support!

Yes it was a ecoboost mustang seen it at sema the build was by Bisimoto Engineering unless those guys are telling lies

:amen:

 

[Tune+]

Yes it was a ecoboost mustang seen it at sema the build was by Bisimoto Engineering unless those guys are telling lies

:amen:

It is an Ecoboost body. See my comment you quoted, it is a 2.5 Duratec with Port injection not direct injection. Claiming 900HP ecoboost is like putting a Coyote swap in a ranger and saying you have a 1000hp Ranger, and failing to mention it is swapped and turbo'd haha.

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