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The elephant in the room: ADM

V00D00

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pigs like the Mustang aren't in the same league as a well ridden motorcycle. Once you start talking very well sorted cars then the script can flip. However, a motorcycle back in 2008 set a VIR North course record of 1:23 (https://www.roadracingworld.com/new...ike-pole-position-with-new-lap-record-at-vir/) and the same year data for cars (http://ncrscca.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/NCR_VIR_North_Course_Track_Records.pdf) shows the 4-wheelers aren't remotely close. A more recent listing (http://www.formulavee.us/track_records/track_records_USA.htm) also shows cars can't compete with a 10 yr old superbike.

Now at Leguna Seca the bike record is/was 1:23.4 as recently as 2017 and in 2016 a viper ACR did 1:28.65.

With enough of a straight-away cars can narrow the gap but as a general rule, motorcycles are massively faster. And 2-stroke shifter carts can be faster still.
Thats great, but im thinking we are not on the same page. 2 wheels will accelerate faster in the straight aways, but the cars will take the corners faster.

But you should compare apples.

F1 vs MotoGP

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shogun32

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Confirmation...
ZZ 2020 GT500 order confirmation from Nick details.JPG
Wow a green screen. IBM AS400 too I bet. We'll still be ordering our flying cars in the year 2100 using the same software and hardware...
 

Tomster

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Wow a green screen. IBM AS400 too I bet. We'll still be ordering our flying cars in the year 2100 using the same software and hardware...
Wow. You really are a troll. What is your problem?
 

shogun32

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Wow. You really are a troll. What is your problem?
How is a simple observation/comment a troll? Did I cast aspersions Ford's way that they still use a system from the 80's for order sequencing? Or that the software is so mature it endures as opposed to the utter shite modern programmer output is?

As to bike/cars I soundly refuted Voodoo's naive assertion with actual facts. Same course, same configuration, same category - production racing. F1 aren't cars. They are airplanes with 4 wheels and a very low hover.

Yes, where it concerns drag racing sure, 4 very large contact patches and "unlimited HP" vis-a-vis tiny-ass contact patches and very limited HP potential the cars will win and huge. But who gives a rat's ass about drag racing, it doesn't require any skill. Now that LAST comment was a real troll. *grin*

I mean really, some guy says his car is a 2005 because the car was titled in 2005 (what matters is date of assembly) and you'se guys give him no end of grief over it. Rather unlikely but it's possible the white sticker on the door says 2005. Or some rent-a-clerk hit the wrong key on the keyboard.
 
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SRF2019gt

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You might, you might not.

Generally new users who are here to genuinely contribute, ask legitimate questions, first try to get a sense of the vibe around the forum. I see in your brief membership, about 50% of your posts are argumentative and insulting (ADM thread, color thread, discussion about the DCT ...)

Not to say you are, but your use pattern suggests a typical troll, i.e., register on a car forum using the name of a competing vehicle, have a totally anonymous profile and make many of your posts with an [attempted] veiled insult - then of course, there are some variations to this: I see you used the version that suggests a certain wealth, and you even busted into the classic "I was doing <something> before you were born" (there's a notable contingent of members here in their 40-50s, so unless you're 80 ...)

Anyway, maybe dial it back a bit[?] I can see you're a little overly excited, since you last posted at 1:48am:

upload_2019-6-28_7-16-50.png


... and then were skulking around here at 4 in the morning?

upload_2019-6-28_7-18-47.png



Maybe get some sleep, cut back on the caffeine, realize that this a pretty positive community, and while it does have publicly facing content and registration, we're still all guests of the site owners/operators, and we're using this site is at their discretion.
Nah, he's probably on crack and been up for a few days......
 

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Tomster

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How is a simple observation/comment a troll? Did I cast aspersions Ford's way that they still use a system from the 80's for order sequencing? Or that the software is so mature it endures as opposed to the utter shite modern programmer output is?

As to bike/cars I soundly refuted Voodoo's naive assertion with actual facts. Same course, same configuration, same category - production racing. F1 aren't cars. They are airplanes with 4 wheels and a very low hover.

Yes, where it concerns drag racing sure, 4 very large contact patches and "unlimited HP" vis-a-vis tiny-ass contact patches and very limited HP potential the cars will win and huge. But who gives a rat's ass about drag racing, it doesn't require any skill. Now that LAST comment was a real troll. *grin*

I mean really, some guy says his car is a 2005 because the car was titled in 2005 (what matters is date of assembly) and you'se guys give him no end of grief over it. Rather unlikely but it's possible the white sticker on the door says 2005. Or some rent-a-clerk hit the wrong key on the keyboard.
I'm not the first to observe this kind of behavior out of you. What are you trying to accomplish? Trying to add some obtuse beard stroking conversation that has no significance? Your participation in the subject matter is becoming annoying and counterproductive and borderline unwelcomed.

You don't have to agree with everyone, but if you are not a meaningful part of the conversation, what is the point?
 

Tomster

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V00D00

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How is a simple observation/comment a troll? Did I cast aspersions Ford's way that they still use a system from the 80's for order sequencing? Or that the software is so mature it endures as opposed to the utter shite modern programmer output is?

As to bike/cars I soundly refuted Voodoo's naive assertion with actual facts. Same course, same configuration, same category - production racing. F1 aren't cars. They are airplanes with 4 wheels and a very low hover.

Yes, where it concerns drag racing sure, 4 very large contact patches and "unlimited HP" vis-a-vis tiny-ass contact patches and very limited HP potential the cars will win and huge. But who gives a rat's ass about drag racing, it doesn't require any skill. Now that LAST comment was a real troll. *grin*

I mean really, some guy says his car is a 2005 because the car was titled in 2005 (what matters is date of assembly) and you'se guys give him no end of grief over it. Rather unlikely but it's possible the white sticker on the door says 2005. Or some rent-a-clerk hit the wrong key on the keyboard.
Odd.. seems pros think you are wrong..

"Riders are often held up in corners by drivers, yet on a racetrack a car can corner at a much higher speed than a race bike."

https://motorbikewriter.com/motorcycles-corner-better-cars/
 

SRF2019gt

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But what excuses are the msrp or bust crowd going to use, if adms aren't 20k+?

According to them, they were shopping for Huracans and then stumbled upon gt500 info, so they can easily afford it, but wont pay $1. Over msrp "whatever it may be"

Gt350, given details pre price, according to this forum was $80k+ came out to 49k, had 20-30k adms, and was generally agreed to be worth ~80k


Gt500, costs $80k, is generally agreed to be worth ~80k.

All Ford did was shift the margins in their favor, if its true high ADMs aren't sustained..

So I now look forward to the same people now switching their tune to a GT+ blower is a better bargain.. when 2 days ago they would buy it at msrp, whatever it may be lol
The last time I looked at a GT500 was when the 2014 models came out. ADM where I live was 20k. Needless to say, I was in no position to spend that. Bought a base model 2014 GT, built and modified it to what I wanted and have been very happy with it. Hey if you have the cash for the 2020, by all means go for it. I my experience with 2 previous special edition Mustangs, they lost value like a rocket and I refuse to go through that same BS again from dealers. Picked up a 2019 GT PP1 401A and love it to death. Got a great deal, will probably do mods to it in the future and have no desire to be part of the Shelby mystique. That's just me. To me, the true appeal of the Mustang has been affordable performance and IMO, the Mustang GT is a pretty good bang for the buck. The GT500 appeals to the high end buyer and offers supercar performance and it priced accordingly. But realistically, ADM will kill sales on this thing eventually which is what is happening to the Bullitt. As mentioned in a previous thread, there are 6 brand new Bullitts on my local dealer's lot with 10K adm on them. 3 of them have been on the lot for 3 months and I expect the new arrivals to be there for a while until the 2020 models are here.

Another thing to consider when paying ADM is that instantly you will be upside down big time if you are financing the vehicle. No new car purchase is a good financial move unless there is a propensity for it being an appreciating asset.....this is not one of those situations.
 

Tomster

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The last time I looked at a GT500 was when the 2014 models came out. ADM where I live was 20k. Needless to say, I was in no position to spend that. Bought a base model 2014 GT, built and modified it to what I wanted and have been very happy with it. Hey if you have the cash for the 2020, by all means go for it. I my experience with 2 previous special edition Mustangs, they lost value like a rocket and I refuse to go through that same BS again from dealers. Picked up a 2019 GT PP1 401A and love it to death. Got a great deal, will probably do mods to it in the future and have no desire to be part of the Shelby mystique. That's just me. To me, the true appeal of the Mustang has been affordable performance and IMO, the Mustang GT is a pretty good bang for the buck. The GT500 appeals to the high end buyer and offers supercar performance and it priced accordingly. But realistically, ADM will kill sales on this thing eventually which is what is happening to the Bullitt. As mentioned in a previous thread, there are 6 brand new Bullitts on my local dealer's lot with 10K adm on them. 3 of them have been on the lot for 3 months and I expect the new arrivals to be there for a while until the 2020 models are here.

Another thing to consider when paying ADM is that instantly you will be upside down big time if you are financing the vehicle. No new car purchase is a good financial move unless there is a propensity for it being an appreciating asset.....this is not one of those situations.
That is unless you are not paying a large ADM. :like:
 

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Tomster

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True but out here, highly unlikely....LOL. Here they call it the "paradise" tax.
Actually, some folks have communicated with me about the ADMs they paid. A lot of people that have it together and were proactive are at MSRP or close. I mean honestly, even a 10K ADM for a CFTP is reasonable as long as you are going to keep the car. 5 or 10K over a long period of time is nothing. The folks who trade in every 2 or 3 years are the ones who loose their ass.

2 of my Rs are staying with me for life. This 500 may as well depending what it turns out to be.
 
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The conversation went to bikes when people with modded GT's started talking about the GT500 being an overpriced mustang. Its the same type of people, they put a lot of money into their GT to make it fast AF. But in the end its still a GT. I owned a GT and know this perspective.
For me, it doesnt matter how fast a GT is (i think stock motor coyote mustang is what, 8.xx? maybe even 7s?). I would still take a GT500.
Again, a GT can be made fast, but you cannot say a GT500 is overpriced when you're in a newer mustang, spend 10k+ and thinks they saved money to go fast. Should have gotten a bike.

Fwiw, I prefer the road course and have driven shifter karts in laguna seca and sonoma, and various sprint kart tracks in cali. Also driven my viper @ laguna seca and Vrod @ sonoma (parade laps :D). A large percentage of people buying these cars will never track them. If they do hit the track it would most likely be the 1/4 mile, half mile or some highway rolls. The smaller percent would be taking it to the road course. The cars are just heavy and expensive to trash around.

I dont know how ford intends to compete with the ZL1 1LE when that car weighs 38xxlbs.
 

Melange_X3

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When will people stop worrying about what other people do with their money? If some one has the money and chooses to pay $50K over for a car that they want it is their business. I live in Southern CA and people regulary pay high ADMs which I can not afford but it is not my place to tell them what to do with their money nor tell the dealership they are wrong to take the extra money for it. I bought my GT350 out of state and have ordered my GT500 out of state because I can't afford the cars with the ADM. I have to travel far and wide to get the car but it is OK because that is just what I have to do. Even at MSRP there will be people who will say why do you need two cars like this and how can you afford it etc...etc... I don't see anyone here saying they are buying these cars as an investment. They are just buying the car becasue they want them. Hell these are some of the least practiacal cars on the road and with high gas prices and the high insurance costs on these cars we all will be wasting a lot of money but doing so with big smiles on our faces. Don't try to make me feel bad because I will be smiling and not worrying about the money I am throwing away on the Shelby GT500. This is definately a shut up and take my money car for me just I didn't have enough to pay the ADM they ask for in CA but if I had it I would have paid it.
 

MaskedRacerX

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I dont know how ford intends to compete with the ZL1 1LE when that car weighs 38xxlbs.
Let's say - just for this discussion - the ZLE is an even 3800, and the GT500 CFTP is right at 4000, heck if we want to bias it a little more against the GT500, let's call it 4050 lbs.

So that's 250 lbs more weight for the GT500 (though I do believe it will be closer to a 200# difference). While I realize every pound counts, I wonder what the real effective deficit will be when the GT500 has +110HP, more usable RPM range, optimized through a 7-speed DCT, (designed specifically for this application), bigger brakes, lighter wheels, more effective aero (at least in terms of high speed downforce I believe) and Ford has had an extended period to optimize suspension calibration, cooling and to compare against a known, conspicuous competitor in the ZLE (that granted, has more track oriented suspension tech and a little more tire).

I mean, 3800 isn't exactly "lightweight", so is there a big weight tipping point, where under/over X is a major dis/advantage?
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