Supercharged Mustang on track?

[D K]

Hello

Has anyvody actually tracked their boosted Stang?

How are the temps? Does a ‘standard’ size heat exchanger cut it?

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[D K]

Nothing?

 

[EFI]

I think there is 1 guy (in the big track cooling thread) that is running a Whipple on track and from what I remember is still struggling with heat even with doing pretty much everything cooling wise.

Although I do imagine that if you're running low boost you should be able to maintain decent temps on track. I have a buddy with a stock GT500 and running like 13lbs of boost on the stock cooling system and does not overheat on track. So the 5.0 with sub 10psi should be fine if you have good cooling (rad, oil cooler atc).

 

[D K]

Thank you.

That pretty much confirms my suspicions.

Boosted cars are never a good idea on the track but i was trying to see if anyone had different insight

 

[EFI]

Again it depends on how much boost you are running.

Keep it at 6-8psi with good cooling (radiator, oil and heat exchanger) and you should be more than fine. When people think of superchargers on the track, they think running 17lbs and that is way too much.

550-600rwhp will be plenty for most courses in the US and allow you to keep up with anything short of hypercars in the straights.

 

[Grintch]

Thank you.

That pretty much confirms my suspicions.

Boosted cars are never a good idea on the track but i was trying to see if anyone had different insight

The typical aftermarket system doesn't upgrade the cooling, and the intercooler is sized for drag and street use. So they overheat fairly quickly on a road course. Even many of the factory supercharged cars have this issue. Like every factory supercharged Mustang ever. Hopefully not a heritage the new GT500 will continue.

 

[D K]

it seems majority of the SC kits nowadays are the PD type, so it has to use an A2W intercooler.

Im curious why there aren't more people using the Centri type like Pro Charger where you could use an A2A IC.

 

[NvrFinished]

@Plimmer is a member here who tracks his car and runs a twin turbo setup if I remember correctly. I believe he has had good luck in terms of temps, but maybe he can chime in.

 

[D K]

yea, turbos use an air to air intercooler, why I was wondering about the centri blowers

 

[JohnD]

I ran into a guy with a supercharged GT350 at a track day, he said he hadn't had any issues with it. It sure was fast in a straight line, but given that this track had 15 corners, it was pretty slow overall. The driver mod, you know.

 

[ddozier]

Hello

Has anyvody actually tracked their boosted Stang?

How are the temps? Does a ‘standard’ size heat exchanger cut it?

My answer may be more info than you initial question asked to be answered but there is a lot to consider when looking at the power levels of various track cars. Also you really have to have an understanding of what one means by a track car. My definition of a track car and how it will be used is not likely to be the same as another owners/track guy might be. I look at a track car as a dedicated tool whos only purpose is to be used on track, that means the safety and performance items needed to compete on track if desired. Many HPDE guys do not consider the safety aspects of a proper dedicated track car into their street car used on track. There is a very big difference between the two cars and the safety they provide to the driver or passenger of the car. If you plan to track a boosted Mustang you will be driving a car that is capable of extreme speeds and as a result extremely bad accidents. You would need to take any power added mod into account and redesign the cars cooling system, gearing, safety systems, and most likely driving style to take advantage of the cars new capabilities.

If you like a high revving always on point engine feel then almost any FI system may leave you disappointed in the long run. If this is for you then I would consider a motor swap to the 52XS or a head swap to the GT350 heads and Ford Racing Cams, the 52XS really makes the most since for the money considering you still have a warranty with Ford Racing and the package is complete, you also have a complete engine to sell and recoup some costs. Down time should be less with the 52XS as well and while the car will not have the ultimate HP & TQ limit of a FI system it has a lot of pull in the higher RPM ranges. To take full advantage of this setup with 3:73 gears you will need to spin this motor to 8000+ RPMs, this will increase the heat load on the cooling and oil systems dramatically and that will need to be addressed as well. If you go to 3:55 (my choice) then you can plan your shifts for 7200-7500 and have the 8500rpm limit for when you need to avoid a shift, but shifting 750-1000rpm lower will greatly reduce the heat load on the cooling system and only minor modifications will be needed to bring everything into check. If you spin any motor even NA to 7500+ rpm you will need to address the cooling systems for any serious track duty. The 52X should net you in the 500whp area depending on fuel and supporting mods but an easy 475whp on 93 pump and no other mods is very possible. The 52XS is a fairly easy drop into a 15-17 GT but will be a little harder on a 18+ GT. The GT350 head swap on an otherwise stock Coyote will come in about 40-50whp less than the 5.2L.

If you like high TQ grunt then choose a PD blower, gear the car lower and drive the car at lower RPMs. You will need to oversize all aspects of the cooling system but if you can alter your driving style to take advantage of the low RPM grunt from the TQ then you will be shifting sooner and can help to reduce the heat created from high RPM engines. There are many out of the box drop-on kits but all of them will have to have a very thorough redesign of the cooling systems to make use of the blower for serious track use. Personally if I went this route I would be doing 3:55 gears or maybe even 3:31 gears so the usable RPM range would take advantage of the low RPM TQ increase of the PD blower. I would shoot for a 600-650whp and that should put you in the 500wtq range. That will allow the RPM ranges for use on track to be much lower 3000-6500 rpm and remove the heat stress created by high RPM events. You will still need significant cooling and increased maintenance schedules due to the higher overall heat load of the blower. A proper tune will be paramount. If you have advanced in your driving skill enough to take advantage of throttle steering and left foot breaking you will likely not like the feeling of a lower RPM higher TQ engine, but if you are a slow in fast out kind of driver, the extra grunt the PD blower provides will be intoxicating given enough tire to handle the TQ.

If you are looking for something in the middle then you need to consider a Turbo or Centrifugal setup. You will setup the car like a NA car as far as RPM range, but when the car is on point in the upper RPM ranges you will be making more HP and more TQ then in NA but less TQ than a PD Blower. These setups can be harder to drive because with an NA or a PD Blower TQ output is fairly flat on the Coyote, but with a turbo or especially the centrifugal TQ is progressive and will come in slower. Depending on the setup TQ can either increase quickly to peak TQ or very slowly to peak TQ as RPMs increase. I have made some generalizations in this area because there are so many variables in Turbo design and boost control that some if not all of these traits can be designed or tuned to be what you want them to be. Heat will be a big concern since you will now be adding the heat load of FI and turning high RPM like an NA. Again cooling will be the ultimate challenge to making this system reliable and keep performance levels at peak on long sessions. Variable vane turbo and CVT Centrifugal offer the best flexibility to tailor the behavior of the engine to meet your needs but add complexity and a need for a very good tuner and a lot of testing.

I hope this helps.

Dave

 

[D K]

My answer may be more info than you initial question asked to be answered but there is a lot to consider when looking at the power levels of various track cars. Also you really have to have an understanding of what one means by a track car. My definition of a track car and how it will be used is not likely to be the same as another owners/track guy might be. I look at a track car as a dedicated tool whos only purpose is to be used on track, that means the safety and performance items needed to compete on track if desired. Many HPDE guys do not consider the safety aspects of a proper dedicated track car into their street car used on track. There is a very big difference between the two cars and the safety they provide to the driver or passenger of the car. If you plan to track a boosted Mustang you will be driving a car that is capable of extreme speeds and as a result extremely bad accidents. You would need to take any power added mod into account and redesign the cars cooling system, gearing, safety systems, and most likely driving style to take advantage of the cars new capabilities.

If you like a high revving always on point engine feel then almost any FI system may leave you disappointed in the long run. If this is for you then I would consider a motor swap to the 52XS or a head swap to the GT350 heads and Ford Racing Cams, the 52XS really makes the most since for the money considering you still have a warranty with Ford Racing and the package is complete, you also have a complete engine to sell and recoup some costs. Down time should be less with the 52XS as well and while the car will not have the ultimate HP & TQ limit of a FI system it has a lot of pull in the higher RPM ranges. To take full advantage of this setup with 3:73 gears you will need to spin this motor to 8000+ RPMs, this will increase the heat load on the cooling and oil systems dramatically and that will need to be addressed as well. If you go to 3:55 (my choice) then you can plan your shifts for 7200-7500 and have the 8500rpm limit for when you need to avoid a shift, but shifting 750-1000rpm lower will greatly reduce the heat load on the cooling system and only minor modifications will be needed to bring everything into check. If you spin any motor even NA to 7500+ rpm you will need to address the cooling systems for any serious track duty. The 52X should net you in the 500whp area depending on fuel and supporting mods but an easy 475whp on 93 pump and no other mods is very possible. The 52XS is a fairly easy drop into a 15-17 GT but will be a little harder on a 18+ GT. The GT350 head swap on an otherwise stock Coyote will come in about 40-50whp less than the 5.2L.

If you like high TQ grunt then choose a PD blower, gear the car lower and drive the car at lower RPMs. You will need to oversize all aspects of the cooling system but if you can alter your driving style to take advantage of the low RPM grunt from the TQ then you will be shifting sooner and can help to reduce the heat created from high RPM engines. There are many out of the box drop-on kits but all of them will have to have a very thorough redesign of the cooling systems to make use of the blower for serious track use. Personally if I went this route I would be doing 3:55 gears or maybe even 3:31 gears so the usable RPM range would take advantage of the low RPM TQ increase of the PD blower. I would shoot for a 600-650whp and that should put you in the 500wtq range. That will allow the RPM ranges for use on track to be much lower 3000-6500 rpm and remove the heat stress created by high RPM events. You will still need significant cooling and increased maintenance schedules due to the higher overall heat load of the blower. A proper tune will be paramount. If you have advanced in your driving skill enough to take advantage of throttle steering and left foot breaking you will likely not like the feeling of a lower RPM higher TQ engine, but if you are a slow in fast out kind of driver, the extra grunt the PD blower provides will be intoxicating given enough tire to handle the TQ.

If you are looking for something in the middle then you need to consider a Turbo or Centrifugal setup. You will setup the car like a NA car as far as RPM range, but when the car is on point in the upper RPM ranges you will be making more HP and more TQ then in NA but less TQ than a PD Blower. These setups can be harder to drive because with an NA or a PD Blower TQ output is fairly flat on the Coyote, but with a turbo or especially the centrifugal TQ is progressive and will come in slower. Depending on the setup TQ can either increase quickly to peak TQ or very slowly to peak TQ as RPMs increase. I have made some generalizations in this area because there are so many variables in Turbo design and boost control that some if not all of these traits can be designed or tuned to be what you want them to be. Heat will be a big concern since you will now be adding the heat load of FI and turning high RPM like an NA. Again cooling will be the ultimate challenge to making this system reliable and keep performance levels at peak on long sessions. Variable vane turbo and CVT Centrifugal offer the best flexibility to tailor the behavior of the engine to meet your needs but add complexity and a need for a very good tuner and a lot of testing.

I hope this helps.

Dave

Thats good info but a lot of it basic onow how when it comes to tracking cars.

I was more interested in gettng feedback from pople who have boosted their cars.


I know in general, hat becomes a huge issue on track. Thats why I wanted to see if anyne had data..?

Its asy to see dolllar for dollar boosting is the way to go.
But, actual tracking - things change real quick.

XS is the way to go. Full stop.
Im trying to see if there is a way to get 80% of the bnefit for 50% of the cost.


D

 

[DAVECS1]

I run my Whipple PP car on track a fair bit. It is an absolute hoot. I have added a belt bar and run a 5 point harness. I have the larger intercooler from Whipple, and I run a stage 1 system. I have coil overs with 6GR wheels and big rubber.

I have tuned my car to stop using boost when the IATs hit 150 or the coolant gets about 235. I usually get power limited once during a 20 minute session. It lasts about half a lap, and then it is game on again.

I have a cooler on my diff and want to ad one to the trans next (MT82). I will probably upgrade my radiator next. I have no issue making quick laps and as it is not a competition, having a lap of non boost runtime gives me a chance to work on perfecting my line.

 

[D K]

I run my Whipple PP car on track a fair bit. It is an absolute hoot. I have added a belt bar and run a 5 point harness. I have the larger intercooler from Whipple, and I run a stage 1 system. I have coil overs with 6GR wheels and big rubber.

I have tuned my car to stop using boost when the IATs hit 150 or the coolant gets about 235. I usually get power limited once during a 20 minute session. It lasts about half a lap, and then it is game on again.

I have a cooler on my diff and want to ad one to the trans next (MT82). I will probably upgrade my radiator next. I have no issue making quick laps and as it is not a competition, having a lap of non boost runtime gives me a chance to work on perfecting my line.

Thats awesome!

How do you control your boost when it gets hot?
Also how high do you rev it to?

 

[DAVECS1]

I use HP tuners, there are a couple different tables I had to work with. Primarily for IAT Temp there is a table that modifies timing vs IAT . It is called IAT Spark. There are also a number of Fuel cut tables in under the engine tab, in the DFCO area. They deal with oil temp, coolant Temp, and Intake air temp. Along with that there are Torque limiters based on temp. I usually set these lower than the fuel cuts as they are less harsh on the drivetrain, but they take a fair amount of more tuning, and I am still not aware of all the conditions that set the max torque number, so sometimes this does not always work. Luckily on Track when pushing hard the Torque limit values vs temp seem to work most of the time, and the controller just limits my throttle opening. I have given thought to putting a controller on the bypass valve of the whipple, It would be alot less cryptic to figure out

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