Squashing Misinformation on Billet Gears (Oil Pump, Crankshaft Sprocket) OPG

[BMR Tech]

The above is primarily related to the direct area being addressed. Then there is the rest of the rotating and bearing assemblies.

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[samcrac]

Samcrac, I completely disagree.

Here a few questions you should think about.

-Did Ford design the OEM damper to be used at much higher RPM than what these cars spin from the factory?

It is not uncommon for these engines to be spun to close to 8K RPM after modded.

-Is the sole purpose of the crank damper to prevent the oil pump from breaking?

-If the OEM gears break, but the OEM forged (softer than cast) crankshaft does not, then when you upgrade to a unbreakable gear set, where is the next weak point?

-Do we have factual data on the specific strengths and rigidity (think soft vs brittle) of the crank shaft, in comparison to these billet gears?

-If you were to experience galling of the crankshaft from the billet gears, how does that scarring or galling of the crank affect its strength?

Just some things to think about, especially for those who intend to spin their engines significantly higher than they were designed to be spun, and with forced induction.

Kelly,

I think what is happening here is my questions/concerns posed seem to be too relative. I have edited one of the lines in my main post. People with custom tunes, raising the rev limiter to 8k on a stock motor with forced induction need all they can get and then some. From my understanding; every single blower kit and the BASE tune that comes with them don't raise the rev limiter, or do it another 200RPM max. It seems people buying the 670HP Roush kit are jumping on these safety mods as piece of mind when they most likely will experience little to no failure.

You pose fine questions but seriously; if you replace the OPG and Crank sprocket with billet ones; and leave the balancer out are you insinuating that someone might break the billet gears? Then what is the point.

While I'm assuming the sole purpose of a balancer is not to save an OPG, the entire reason these people buying them seems to be exactly for that reason. As a matter of fact, I called ATI, and they said the Miata crowd buys their balancer exactly for this sole reason.

I started this thread for the education. So I thank you and please continue to enlighten!

 

[BMR Tech]

I did not insinuate you would break a billet gear.

I did insuate that putting a billet gear on an engine that has, potentially, a softer crankshaft than the material of the OPG could cause an issue. Mike Tymensky, one of the better mod motor builders years back would always tell people to ensure they has a good damper on these engines when they upgrade the OPG. He even provided pics of examples. The crankshafts were scarred badly.

Al Papitto also did the same thing. Recommended the better dampers when upgrading OPG. He also showed images of damaged crankshafts from insufficient dampening.

This goes back many years my friend. These Ford OHC engines, specifically 4V headed, have been prone to this since the beginning.

It was believed back then, and Steeda may likely chime in since they had / have one of the more popular dampers for the older mod motors, that the smaller "underdrive" crank dampers were responsible for OPG failures and spun bearings. The internet sites were plagued with these occurrences, and I believe Steeda actually redesigned their dampers due to this.

So, if lessening the effectiveness of the dampers were proven to cause issues on 6-7K RPM max engines, then I think it would only be common sense that acquiring better dampening is a good thing.

FWIW, there have been plenty of Coyote OPG issues without poweradders.

As for your comment about the turbos and harmonics, increased cylinder pressures will absolutely put more "bad" or unwanted increase of stressful harmonics thriuhg the entire rotating assembly. Hence the reason turbo cars break OPG all the time.

 

[samcrac]

^ Great info. This is a totally new angle to this discussion and I appreciate it.

 

[BMR Tech]

Well you have to look at the facts.

Why do the OPG fail?

Because of increased harmonics from either higher rpm, or higher power levels. Or both.

So the OPG are shattering because of the root cause, which is increased harmonics.

To me, that automatically throws a big sign out that says, "hi this is your engine, please make these harmonics go away"

 

[samcrac]

Well you have to look at the facts.

Why do the OPG fail?

Because of increased harmonics from either higher rpm, or higher power levels. Or both.

So the OPG are shattering because of the root cause, which is increased harmonics.

To me, that automatically throws a big sign out that says, "hi this is your engine, please make these harmonics go away"

In theory though, why not just do a balancer then? I really am not being facetious, I really want to know if this is a viable option for those wanting a protection with a FI setup that is within "stock block power level tolerance (if such tolerance even exists)."

 

[BMR Tech]

I don't understand your question.

Hundreds of people have done just the damper. Thousands have done nothing. And hundreds have done all of it.

It's no different than many other instances in our hobby. Builidng the motor, throw head studs on it. Need them? Probably not.

People do as they choose, and hopefully as they can afford. In my opinion, there's no reason to debate a topic that relates to whether or not someone should spend a small fraction of the cost of an entire new engine, to ensure they don't have issues.

Unfortunately you will not find hard facts on what route is the best path to take ( damper OR billet gears). Therefore, you'll have people who do it the best way, which is to upgrade all of the components.

The one thing that I can tell you is, you will not see someone have an issue from upgrading all 3 components. That's enough for me. ;)

 

[sigintel]

Ford's info from Engineering released thru Ford Performance Info Center

In theory though, why not just do a balancer then? I really am not being facetious, I really want to know if this is a viable option for those wanting a protection with a FI setup that is within "stock block power level tolerance (if such tolerance even exists)."

Excellent thread samcrac with great contributions all around.
A damper is easier to install versus OPG and Times Gear.
Would it be enough to do damper alone? Very very tough call.
The word from Ford:
http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53571

 

[rio16]

Great thread. Great info from all these guys.

Got my OPG and Sprocket installed and my installer showed me the stock OPG and man thank god i changed it cus it looked scarred or worn out. glad i listened and invested $600 for these opg and sprocket. Now just need that 10 rib belt and damper to make it even better.

 

[JohnG]

A lot of good info in here. I'll probably just order the crank gear, opg, and damper to have them all done when I get my clutch installed. I'm going to be broke, but I'll be smiling the entire time driving the car!

 

[Furore]

Super glad I got the crank gear, OPG, and damper after all this stuff came to light plus the other thread from the Ford engineer.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Well you have to look at the facts.

Why do the OPG fail?

Because of increased harmonics from either higher rpm, or higher power levels. Or both.

So the OPG are shattering because of the root cause, which is increased harmonics.

To me, that automatically throws a big sign out that says, "hi this is your engine, please make these harmonics go away"

I should add that I always ran aftermarket balances when installing OPG's.

I used ATI's for a long while. However have swapped to Innovators West after I took one apart and saw all the amazing stuff inside of them, and heard the back story on how they were designed and for whom. They are a really really neat piece.

 

[slowpony]

Has anyone ever though about just selling their stock shortblock and buying an aluminator? The way I see it is the aluminator is 5500, you can get maybe 2500-3000 for your shortblock, plus what you would spend to buy OPG's and get them installed that's probably 1200$ so you're only a little over 1K away from a built motor and I think I read the aluminator comes with billet gears from ford!

 

[arieso94z28]

I should add that I always ran aftermarket balances when installing OPG's.

I used ATI's for a long while. However have swapped to Innovators West after I took one apart and saw all the amazing stuff inside of them, and heard the back story on how they were designed and for whom. They are a really really neat piece.

Speaking about dampers......a few of us are trying to get your input/info on a 8 rib pulley we can use on a ATI damper with the stage 2 kit. We have tagged you in the thread.

 

[doodguy]

Has anyone ever though about just selling their stock shortblock and buying an aluminator? The way I see it is the aluminator is 5500, you can get maybe 2500-3000 for your shortblock, plus what you would spend to buy OPG's and get them installed that's probably 1200$ so you're only a little over 1K away from a built motor and I think I read the aluminator comes with billet gears from ford!

You would also need pistons rods right?

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