Squashing Misinformation on Billet Gears (Oil Pump, Crankshaft Sprocket) OPG

[Brian Z.]

I will be adding the Damper from Collin at RI as soon as I free up some funds. Then I will have the trifecta of protection :first:

Who is this Collin at RI and why his damper over an ATI? Thanks.

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[Travis@boostworks]

We think that the failure occurs from sudden aceleration (or deceleration). Hitting a limiter, or just rapid acceleration under load which can happen with a power adder. That's just my hunch.. No real investigation behind it.

 

[jasonstang]

We think that the failure occurs from sudden aceleration (or deceleration). Hitting a limiter, or just rapid acceleration under load which can happen with a power adder. That's just my hunch.. No real investigation behind it.

Well if that's the case, it would've break just by revving it in neutral.

 

[zaquhree]

Well if that's the case, it would've break just by revving it in neutral.

there isn't load on the motor revving in neutral

failures seem to also stem from getting on the car, spinning and letting off, and then nailing it again to try to gain traction

also driving in D and just FLOORING the car and letting it rev up can be detrimental because of the shock

I think automatics fair better because the torque converter eats up driveline shock in the fluid

 

[jasonstang]

there isn't load on the motor revving in neutral

failures seem to also stem from getting on the car, spinning and letting off, and then nailing it again to try to gain traction

also driving in D and just FLOORING the car and letting it rev up can be detrimental because of the shock

I think automatics fair better because the torque converter eats up driveline shock in the fluid

That's what I mean. There needs to be load on the crank causing it to flex and vibrate to cause damage.

 

[Rintegration]

Who is this Collin at RI and why his damper over an ATI? Thanks.

m Collin and I'm the owner of Racing Integration in Tampa, Florida. We do not make our own damper he was reffering to purchasing an ATI from us. This OPG/Timing gear debate has been going on for quite some while now. The coyote is a great engine but like anything else it has its limitations. I've been through this OPG dellema about 13yrs ago when we where building Honda's that made around the 700-800whp range. The fix for the broken gears then where billet OPG/ATI damper believe it or not the coyote oil pump uses the same design. What breaks the OPG/timing gears? The coyote OPG gear uses a keyed design that allow a bit of fore & aft movement on the crankshaft snout so combine that with a powdered metal piece and harmonics is a recipe for failure. On might ask well how come the infamous Toyota 2jz can make 1000+whp with a factory OPG answer is the gear is splined on the shaft and it's a higher quality metal(I like to compare to different engines so you guys have a little more understanding). Also add a supercharger(doesn't matter what type) and you had even more harmonics to the mix. The more power & rpm the more harmonics the engine produces. So yeah you could install just an ATI damper and let it eat...yes it would last longer that if it had the stock damper but eventually it will fail. $1100 in parts plus labor is a lot cheaper than replacing a coyote longblock. At the end of the day I would like to have the peace of mind that I can rev to the moon and not worry about losing an oil pump/timing gear. I attach a couple pics of the coyote and 2jz oil pumps so you can see the difference in the design and why one lives at big power while the other doesn't.

 

[BMR Tech]

Good stuff Collin.

Ford, please make a splined design like pictured above. lol

 

[zaquhree]

m Collin and I'm the owner of Racing Integration in Tampa, Florida. We do not make our own damper he was reffering to purchasing an ATI from us. This OPG/Timing gear debate has been going on for quite some while now. The coyote is a great engine but like anything else it has its limitations. I've been through this OPG dellema about 13yrs ago when we where building Honda's that made around the 700-800whp range. The fix for the broken gears then where billet OPG/ATI damper believe it or not the coyote oil pump uses the same design. What breaks the OPG/timing gears? The coyote OPG gear uses a keyed design that allow a bit of fore & aft movement on the crankshaft snout so combine that with a powdered metal piece and harmonics is a recipe for failure. On might ask well how come the infamous Toyota 2jz can make 1000+whp with a factory OPG answer is the gear is splined on the shaft and it's a higher quality metal(I like to compare to different engines so you guys have a little more understanding). Also add a supercharger(doesn't matter what type) and you had even more harmonics to the mix. The more power & rpm the more harmonics the engine produces. So yeah you could install just an ATI damper and let it eat...yes it would last longer that if it had the stock damper but eventually it will fail. $1100 in parts plus labor is a lot cheaper than replacing a coyote longblock. At the end of the day I would like to have the peace of mind that I can rev to the moon and not worry about losing an oil pump/timing gear. I attach a couple pics of the coyote and 2jz oil pumps so you can see the difference in the design and why one lives at big power while the other doesn't.

^ I never considered a ATI unit but this man suggested it. I forgot about it and then it was brought up by Ford Engineers in a discussion and even some of the most respect coyote tuners recommended the unit as Collin did without any bias. Needless to say it helps a lot for the peace of mind at bigger power

 

[samcrac]

Curtis, who is a member on this forum, had his OEM Timing Gear shatter on his VMP TVS car. Stock motor, and was not making 700+ to the tire.

It is true. The 2015 does have a weaker timing gear. I was one of the first people to build the engine in these cars, and I awaited MMR to finish up the '15 specific timing gear so I could use it on my build.

I speak to A LOT of S197 and S550 owners. I know that I have had atleast 3 customers break their OEM S550 Timing Gears, unfortunately.

I am a firm believer that these cars need to have the Billet Gears and an ATI Damper when being built to perform at 80%+ more than the OEM Power level, and tuned to spin past the OEM Redline/Limiter/Shift points.

Good post.

Kelly,

Could you bring Curtis in to this thread so we can have the details of his setup/how/when the sprocket broke on his Coyote? Thanks!

 

[zaquhree]

Kelly,

Could you bring Curtis in to this thread so we can have the details of his setup/how/when the sprocket broke on his Coyote? Thanks!

I believe he said he was just driving down the road and lost the gear. Caused some damage to the heads IIRC

 

[foghat]

What is the install like for the opg? Fairly involved I think? Anyone know roughly how many hours a shop should charge?

 

[beefcake]

we typically get a day on the install

the sprocket itself doesn't tend to break for no reason, it's a shock in the drivetrain, using 2 steps on the limiter, hurting the engine somewhere else

we've been through 3 on our 2011 car

it's one of those things, while your in there, you might as well do it

there are a few good balancers, ati, mmr or innovators. i personally have never been a fan o Innovators west.

i don't personally feel the balancer is a big issue. but...if your going to make big power, tracks to require an sfi balancer. but i don't believe it's a must to spend your $$ on if your budget isn't there.

#1 - oil pump gears
#2 - sprocket
#3 - balancer

 

[Rintegration]

What is the install like for the opg? Fairly involved I think? Anyone know roughly how many hours a shop should charge?

We charge 8 hrs for the job(a days work)

 

[samcrac]

I feel this has generated a pretty solid discussion. I just want to review one thing. Using Collins information in theory, if you only use an aftermarket balancer to dampen the harmonics; in the long run you're still going to pop an OPG.

Now install the aftermarket OPG. There has not been a single report of an aftermarket OPG braking.

The redundancy seems to be absolutely taking money and lightning it on fire. If it makes you feel good, by all means; but why is it necessary, if these gears are completely bulletproof (which seems to be true); there is 0 reason to get a balancer on a street car.

Again, lets also remember that the 3 most recent examples of a broken OPG have come from Twin Turbo cars. There shouldn't be any harmonic change from turbos.

 

[BMR Tech]

Samcrac, I completely disagree.

Here a few questions you should think about.

-Did Ford design the OEM damper to be used at much higher RPM than what these cars spin from the factory?

It is not uncommon for these engines to be spun to close to 8K RPM after modded.

-Is the sole purpose of the crank damper to prevent the oil pump from breaking?

-If the OEM gears break, but the OEM forged (softer than cast) crankshaft does not, then when you upgrade to a unbreakable gear set, where is the next weak point?

-Do we have factual data on the specific strengths and rigidity (think soft vs brittle) of the crank shaft, in comparison to these billet gears?

-If you were to experience galling of the crankshaft from the billet gears, how does that scarring or galling of the crank affect its strength?

Just some things to think about, especially for those who intend to spin their engines significantly higher than they were designed to be spun, and with forced induction.

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