Square vs Staggered: is it really a big deal?

[wildcatgoal]

With my setup (275 and 305) plus mostly Steeda suspension, I really don't notice any appreciable understeer unless I'm making a turn in mistake, which I can generally correct with a throttle punch just as the body does it's (at this point, ultra minimal) roll. If I had the money I'd get a 285 square setup for track duty (which I don't have the money for either at like $300-500 a pop + risk to vehicle), but I like the general look of staggered and it handles perfectly fine in mountain road situations. If you are kicking through an off/on ramp that has kind of a long sweeping turn and quickly lift off the accelerator, you may feel the car turn tighter slightly afterwards if you have a staggered setup or a car prone to understeer in general.

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[Sal33n]

You would be able to do the same speed. If the front tires are losing traction first then adding more rear tire (skewing the car even more towards understeer if everything else remains the same) isn't going to cause the fronts to break loose sooner.

Thank you for your answer. :cheers:

 

[Sal33n]

Thank you to all. I guess it comes down to this. I have a 255 square setup (GT/CS factory setup). Looking at going 285 square or 285/305. Trying to figure out if going bigger and staggered will negatively impact cornering and how it impacts it compared to my original factory setup. Obviously suspension comes into play also but for now taking one step at a time.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Really you should be fine. 285/305 is a very popular size. With stock 255/275 staggered setup, and a little suspension tuning (sways, alignment) the car handles neutrally enough for everything except perhaps nationally competitive autox, I would imagine the same would be true of 285/305.

The main downside to your setup is that you won't be able to rotate the tires to even out tire wear. That's about it.

 

[CommyO]

While square setups are often great for improving balance during steady-state cornering, typically you want a hint of understeer for a high-powered RWD car on a track, which you neutralize with power application after the apex of a turn (no, not drifting lol). It makes the car predictable at the limit. You can do this with tires or setup or both. For a lot of us, a square setup is more economical and practical, and just tune around it. 275 square or 285 square is a solid setup.

For autocross a square setup is ideal, as you usually never have enough front-end grip and getting into the corner fast and hard is important.

I disagree. A square setup would be more beneficial on a track provided that the suspension is in order. Understeer would only slow lap times that could be sped up by hitting corners faster and more planted. This is why the heavy ass camaro z28 puts down great lap times while running 305/30ZR19 on all 4s. The gt350 comes stock with a 295f 305r and the R comes with 315r and 305f and I think Ford knew the best setup involved the least stagger possible.

 

[Nine]

I disagree. A square setup would be more beneficial on a track provided that the suspension is in order. Understeer would only slow lap times that could be sped up by hitting corners faster and more planted. This is why the heavy ass camaro z28 puts down great lap times while running 305/30ZR19 on all 4s. The gt350 comes stock with a 295f 305r and the R comes with 315r and 305f and I think Ford knew the best setup involved the least stagger possible.

Perhaps the tire size was simply the biggest tires they figured they could make work. If you want to look at really fast cars and tire sizes consider that the Z06 comes with a 285/335 setup. A GT3 RS comes with a 265/325 setup, as does the Porsche 918.

Obviously there's a lot that goes into an ideal tire setup and it varies by vehicle, but to say that a square setup (or one with the least stagger possible) is the ideal one ignores a lot of factors and we can't just find a couple of fast cars with a setup that fits our position and argue it applies in every case. If Ford knew a setup with the least stagger possible was ideal why didn't they just do 295s or 305s all around on the GT350s?

 

[GTtreefiddy]

Ideally wouldn't you want the most grip you can get per corner?

Square has a ton of benefits but if cost wasn't a factor I would go 275 or 285 with 305 vs 275^2

 

[BmacIL]

I disagree. A square setup would be more beneficial on a track provided that the suspension is in order. Understeer would only slow lap times that could be sped up by hitting corners faster and more planted. This is why the heavy ass camaro z28 puts down great lap times while running 305/30ZR19 on all 4s. The gt350 comes stock with a 295f 305r and the R comes with 315r and 305f and I think Ford knew the best setup involved the least stagger possible.

On a racetrack you can put a lot more power down than in autocross. As much meat as you can get on the car is best, and tune the suspension to get the balance you want. Yes, at some point you can create a big enough stagger that you cannot overcome the grip balance with suspension tuning, and you just have a pushy car that is unpredictable (too heavily sprung) or picks up its inside rear tire (too stiff on rear bar). Close to square is going to be the easiest to get the handling balance you want for a FR architecture like this.

For a heavy car like this, you do want more tire, but keep in mind that the more tire you have, the longer it takes to heat up. That is important in autocross. In autocross, you're generating big slip angles very quickly, and you need as much front grip as you can get to rotate the car around. Also, most classes have restrictions on max width, like 285, and at that point, just run square to get the most grip possible.

 

[Need4SpeedMotors]

285/305 is a common application that is done by many of the members here on the forum.

 

[CommyO]

Perhaps the tire size was simply the biggest tires they figured they could make work. If you want to look at really fast cars and tire sizes consider that the Z06 comes with a 285/335 setup. A GT3 RS comes with a 265/325 setup, as does the Porsche 918.

Obviously there's a lot that goes into an ideal tire setup and it varies by vehicle, but to say that a square setup (or one with the least stagger possible) is the ideal one ignores a lot of factors and we can't just find a couple of fast cars with a setup that fits our position and argue it applies in every case. If Ford knew a setup with the least stagger possible was ideal why didn't they just do 295s or 305s all around on the GT350s?

Touché. The ACR also comes with an extreme staggered at 295f and 355r being the most aggressive setup pretty much available. My guess is to why Ford went staggered was that they couldn't fit 305s up front and wanted to maintain a slight stagger for the muscle car enthusiasts. All in all, I agree, there are much more things besides tires on a track, like aero, for example. Good discussion though guys. Really interested to see what the next z28 has in store to combat the R.

 

[Nine]

I've got a 285/305 setup and did my first track day with the car last week. My alignment settings were a best-guess (I think -1.7 front camber, -1.5 rear) for street oriented use, my sway bars were BMR's recommendation after I called them (front set on middle, rear on full soft,) and my tire pressures started off with my best guess (38 hot front and 37 hot rear.)

Before getting on track we had a wet skidpad and on the skidpad my car had slight understeer, a light application of throttle was all that was needed to balance it out. On track it handled the same way in the larger sweeping turns, very slight understeer that was easy to balance with the throttle. Other areas on track I felt like having more rear grip due to wider tires allowed me to get on throttle earlier in corners where front end grip wasn't a problem but we were warned to be careful applying too much throttle as we exited the corner.

I'm definitely not a track expert and I'd never argue that a grossly unbalanced car would be a benefit, but I'd argue that the staggered setup never hindered me and in some of the corners let me exit with more throttle than if I had narrower rear tires to match my fronts.

 

[CoolTech]

From an aesthetics perspective, many people prefer a staggered set-up especially when it is easier to have a wider tire at the rear of the car. A square set-up is arguably more pragmatic as it allows you better tire rotations and therefore prolonged tire life. Once you decide which way you want to go, you can do suspension set-up to achieve neutral handling. This too will be strongly influenced by what you want to use the car for. For example, if you have a lot of track (road course) usage in mind, you will likely want more camber in bot the front and rear - but this isn't necessarily good for tire wear for a lot of street driving. It's all about trade-offs and the first question you need to answer for yourself is how you want to use the car and then go from there.

 

[daltron]

Still waiting for someone to get aftermarket fenders and do something crazy like 325 squared.

 

[GOFAST]

If they went staggered on the GT350 and GT350R, I am sure it will work on your GT as well. If you intend on doing some suspension mods and further tuning, you may find a more neutral set up works, and maybe not. For starters, some better rubber such as MPSS's are going to make a HUGE difference and may be all you need depending on how comfortable you are pushing your car to the limits.

 

[2morrow]

Great thread!

I got a staggered set up with 305's out back and mostly Steeda suspension components with the exception of BMR SP080 springs. I do a track event about every other month and haven't seen that much understeer at all.

Your driving style, sensitivity to the vehicle and each corner can greatly reduce the tendency of understeer. I am no Michael Schumacher but it works for me.

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