Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

[GT Pony]

Hello; I see a few things. First is that you pick up on the links I posted with a favorable response and get jumped on for such. I included more than one link to show there is a growing body of evidence to support natural immunity. That natural immunity needs to be supported after all the medical science study over many decades is perhaps the more interesting point.

I posted links a while back after doing some digging into how the mRNA actually work. I was not up to date on the details so needed additional information. As with nearly all science, new stuff is built upon the work of others. So I did understand enough from my dated knowledge to follow much of the new stuff. I posted some comments not too long ago, but will summarize. The mRNA shots consist of tailored instructions very similar to the normal instructions each of our body cells use to make things the body needs. The cell nucleus has all the instructions in the DNA. That DNA creates it's own mRNA when the body needs a particular item made, often a protein.
The mRNA is just a small snippet of all the information in the DNA. The mRNA (memory RNA) is just instructions.
The shot mRNA is a version created in a lab with the instructions to make something very close to the spikes of protein that cover the current, at the time, covid19 virus. Very close but with some man included enhancements. Of those enhancements two stood out to me. One is that the instructions are tweaked so that a cell makes many more copies of the virus protein than a cell would normally make. It seems the codons at the end of a normal mRNA sequence which stop production are modified for this.

All those large numbers of copies of virus spike protein get out of the cell and trigger an immune response because the spike copies are considered invaders. After two shots the bodies immune reaction is to do several things, one of which is to make antibodies specific to attack (attach to) the spike copies themselves. Also if you happen to get infected with the actual virus the antibodies will attack( attach) to the real virus. Here is the main point. It is the natural immune system of the body which actually makes the antibodies and all other aspects of the vaccine immune reaction, not the shots.
Thing is that is just what the body does on it's own in a person who survives an infection naturally. Both natural immunity and shot immunity come from the actions of the person's own body.

There is a difference of opinion among medical scientist/researchers about what is more important with regard to immunity. Some think the total number of antibodies counts more while others think the overall immune reaction of the body counts more. Since the vaccines seem to cause a greater number of antibodies early on it is picked by those who support the vaccines. ( posted two links which discuss this a while back)
Other scientists/ researchers favor looking at the overall immune reaction over just antibody numbers. Here is the important bit about antibodies.
In both vaccine and natural immune reactions the number of antibodies will wane over time. This is the normal way. However the immune system maintains a base level of antibodies and can make more antibodies as needed. So is seems the only advantage of a vaccine shot for the naturally immune is to boost the antibody numbers for a while. If you happen to be in the camp which thinks antibody numbers are the better metric, then that is a reason to suggest the naturally immune also need get a shot. Thing is the naturally immune will be protected anyway even without the shot.
Of the several links I posted on natural immunity the one thing picked out to come back at on in this thread was the one which said this. After saying those with natural immunity are already as good to go and maybe better off than those with shots, they went on to say the naturally immune could be boosted with one shot. Translation = more antibody numbers from a shot.
I do not know the why the bit about a booster shot was added in the report. Could it be a money thing? I do not have the inside information. It does not make sense on the surface of it.

It would make sense if you understood what you just posted/explained. These things you just said might give a clue why there is booster shot research and talk:

" In both vaccine and natural immune reactions the number of antibodies will wane over time. "

and

" After saying those with natural immunity are already as good to go and maybe better off than those with shots, they went on to say the naturally immune could be boosted with one shot."

Apparently you don't believe that and conclude it's the "money grab" theory instead.

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[sk47]

It would make sense if you understood what you just posted/explained. These things you just said might give a clue why there is booster shot research and talk:

" In both vaccine and natural immune reactions the number of antibodies will wane over time. "

and

" After saying those with natural immunity are already as good to go and maybe better off than those with shots, they went on to say the naturally immune could be boosted with one shot."

Apparently you don't believe that and conclude it's the "money grab" theory instead.

Hello; What you miss in the above statement is that even after antibodies numbers wane over time they do not disappear. As I quoted in a link earlier today, the antibody numbers maintain a base number for an extended time. The immune system also has a memory of the virus and does make new antibodies when needed. The notion that total antibody numbers is the all important item leaves out much of what the immune system does.
Here is another item to consider. The shot antibodies and natural antibodies do not wane if you keep running into the virus. Say you get exposed to the virus from someone shedding it. That will keep the immune system actively maintaining antibodies at a sufficient level.
If you are not running into the virus then there is not a need for specific antibodies to be kept at high levels. The immune system has a backup plan in place for if you ever run into the virus again, it ramps up the production of antibodies and other cells.

So that antibodies wane is not a big deal. Also if it was a deal at all, then the condition would apply to both natural and shot immunity. In other words a wash.

No need for me to comment on the "money grab" comment you made above as I made no conclusion at all.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; I see a few things. First is that you pick up on the links I posted with a favorable response and get jumped on for such. I included more than one link to show there is a growing body of evidence to support natural immunity. That natural immunity needs to be supported after all the medical science study over many decades is perhaps the more interesting point.

I posted links a while back after doing some digging into how the mRNA actually work. I was not up to date on the details so needed additional information. As with nearly all science, new stuff is built upon the work of others. So I did understand enough from my dated knowledge to follow much of the new stuff. I posted some comments not too long ago, but will summarize. The mRNA shots consist of tailored instructions very similar to the normal instructions each of our body cells use to make things the body needs. The cell nucleus has all the instructions in the DNA. That DNA creates it's own mRNA when the body needs a particular item made, often a protein.
The mRNA is just a small snippet of all the information in the DNA. The mRNA (memory RNA) is just instructions.
The shot mRNA is a version created in a lab with the instructions to make something very close to the spikes of protein that cover the current, at the time, covid19 virus. Very close but with some man included enhancements. Of those enhancements two stood out to me. One is that the instructions are tweaked so that a cell makes many more copies of the virus protein than a cell would normally make. It seems the codons at the end of a normal mRNA sequence which stop production are modified for this.

All those large numbers of copies of virus spike protein get out of the cell and trigger an immune response because the spike copies are considered invaders. After two shots the bodies immune reaction is to do several things, one of which is to make antibodies specific to attack (attach to) the spike copies themselves. Also if you happen to get infected with the actual virus the antibodies will attack( attach) to the real virus. Here is the main point. It is the natural immune system of the body which actually makes the antibodies and all other aspects of the vaccine immune reaction, not the shots.
Thing is that is just what the body does on it's own in a person who survives an infection naturally. Both natural immunity and shot immunity come from the actions of the person's own body.

There is a difference of opinion among medical scientist/researchers about what is more important with regard to immunity. Some think the total number of antibodies counts more while others think the overall immune reaction of the body counts more. Since the vaccines seem to cause a greater number of antibodies early on it is picked by those who support the vaccines. ( posted two links which discuss this a while back)
Other scientists/ researchers favor looking at the overall immune reaction over just antibody numbers. Here is the important bit about antibodies.
In both vaccine and natural immune reactions the number of antibodies will wane over time. This is the normal way. However the immune system maintains a base level of antibodies and can make more antibodies as needed. So is seems the only advantage of a vaccine shot for the naturally immune is to boost the antibody numbers for a while. If you happen to be in the camp which thinks antibody numbers are the better metric, then that is a reason to suggest the naturally immune also need get a shot. Thing is the naturally immune will be protected anyway even without the shot.
Of the several links I posted on natural immunity the one thing picked out to come back at on in this thread was the one which said this. After saying those with natural immunity are already as good to go and maybe better off than those with shots, they went on to say the naturally immune could be boosted with one shot. Translation = more antibody numbers from a shot.
I do not know the why the bit about a booster shot was added in the report. Could it be a money thing? I do not have the inside information. It does not make sense on the surface of it.

I have a question. For how much longer do you think this virus will continue to cause problems?
Based on your responses, it seems that you think it’ll be over sooner rather than later, hence your comments regarding the naturally immune not needing a booster shot.
You’ve already stated that natural immunity withers over time, so that’s why I’m inferring your position here.
Can you clarify?

 

[K4fxd]

You’ve already stated that natural immunity withers over time,

That is not what he stated supported by valid links to medical schools ect...

The antibodies wane after a time without being exposed to the virus. However a small amount remains forever and the memory cells remember if a reinfection occurs years later.

The vaccines of the past also worked in this same manner. It is believed the mRNA jab will act the same way. Time will tell if this is so but no reason not to believe it at this point.

 

[GT Pony]

Here is another item to consider. The shot antibodies and natural antibodies do not wane if you keep running into the virus. Say you get exposed to the virus from someone shedding it. That will keep the immune system actively maintaining antibodies at a sufficient level.
If you are not running into the virus then there is not a need for specific antibodies to be kept at high levels.

So it sounds like people should instead of getting vaccinated or a booster shot, they should just get exposed to Covid now and then to "keep their immune system anti-bodies up". Maybe a company can come up with a low dose of Covid in a nose spray and sell it as "Covid Immune System Builder". It could be sold next to the energy drinks at the stores. What price should be put on that hot selling product? Got any caves full of bats around your place?

So that antibodies wane is not a big deal. Also if it was a deal at all, then the condition would apply to both natural and shot immunity. In other words a wash.

So guess it seems the vaccine and booster shot really is a "money grab" then must be the only conclusion.

 

[K4fxd]

So it sounds like people should of getting a booster shot just get exposed to Covid now and then to "keep their immune system up"

You claim we don't know science.

IF your antibodies are reducing from their peak it means you are not running into the virus. That should be a good thing, unless you are hiding in the basement till it blows over.

I'm getting my next bi-annual blood draw in a week or so and will have them run an anti body test again to see if I am in infected areas or not.

 

[GT Pony]

You claim we don't know science.

IF your antibodies are reducing from their peak it means you are not running into the virus. That should be a good thing, unless you are hiding in the basement till it blows over.

I'm getting my next bi-annual blood draw in a week or so and will have them run an anti body test again to see if I am in infected areas or not.

You two obviously don't. What are you going to do if your anti-bodies test low, go searching for some Covid nose spray to build it back up?

 

[sk47]

I have a question. For how much longer do you think this virus will continue to cause problems?
Based on your responses, it seems that you think it’ll be over sooner rather than later, hence your comments regarding the naturally immune not needing a booster shot.
You’ve already stated that natural immunity withers over time, so that’s why I’m inferring your position here.
Can you clarify?

Hello; If I were CJJon here is where I would make a cutting remark, but I am not him. I did not state that natural immunity "withers over time". Also it is not just my understanding of how natural immunity works, most every one who has studied biology and all in the medical fields know natural immunity can be very long lasting, sometimes life long.
You are inferring my comments incorrectly.
It is like this. The antibodies are the shock troops made to go for a very specific virus by the body in large numbers by either a natural response to an infection or a response to a vaccine. Once the immune system conquers a pathogen, covid19 in this case, the virus is gone from the body. Since the antibodies are specific to the particular virus there is no need to keep them around being active forever. So if you have covid then recover those specific antibodies linger for a while, but if you are never exposed to that virus again they have nothing to do is a way to think of it. So eventually most of them come to the end of their time.
The large number of antibodies may be gone but the immune system has a memory of the virus stored. The immune system can mount a response to that pathogen months or even years later if that virus is ever encountered again. This is not a new thing just since the covid 19 virus showed up.

You also have tried to infer that my posts imply I know when the pandemic will end. I do not. I have been focusing on one particular aspect of the pandemic - those who have had the infection and recovered on their own. I have not been writing about the issues of the things which will end the pandemic. I took the stance that those with natural immunity do not need the shots.

For me, who is a two shot taker, and for those who survived an actual infection there is a chance the covid19 virus will mutate to the extent that neither immune response will cover the new mutation. Think of the flu. Much will depend on how much and how often the covid virus mutates. At some point there could be a covid mutation that none of us is immune to, not the vaccinated and not the naturally immune.
I have had the flu at least four times during my life. Spaced out so there was years and sometimes decades between infections. I say four based on how very sick I got. It is possible I had a flu many other times but was not as sick. Some seasons the flu going around may have been somewhat similar to one I had before so I had a little help in that my immune system had a close enough response that I did not get so sick. I suspect such is what is happening with the delta covid variant now. We with shots designed for alpha and those that survived the alpha strain are blessed in that delta is similar enough to alpha that we have some protection.

 

[sk47]

So it sounds like people should instead of getting vaccinated or a booster shot, they should just get exposed to Covid now and then to "keep their immune system up". Maybe a company can come up with a low dose of Covid in a nose spray and sell it as "Covid Immune System Builder". It could be sold next to the energy drinks at the stores. What price should be put on that hot selling product? Got any caves full of bats around your place?



So guess it seems the vaccine and booster shot really is a "money grab" then must be the only conclusion.

Hello; I hate to be pushed into this response. You are completely out of whack with both of the above comments. I have explained this many times and figure you are playing games again.

 

[GT Pony]

Hello; I hate to be pushed into this response. You are completely out of whack with both of the above comments. I have explained this many times and figure you are playing games again.

Guess you don't understand sarcasm either, lol.

So really, instead of getting a vaccination or booster for waning anti-bodies, you should just get a mild case of Covid now and then because it might be a better way to obtain anti-bodies and a stronger immumity to Covid? That's what you are eluding to. The nose spray with live low dose of Covid might not be a bad idea in that case, lol.

 

[sk47]

You two obviously don't. What are you going to do if your anti-bodies test low, go searching for some Covid nose spray to build it back up?

Hello; just so the lurkers who actually can follow the discussion get the information. It does not matter if my antibodies are low. If the shots i took are working then my immune system can make more if ever needed. Low antibodies is not a big deal.

I will try again to refute your boneheaded claim that people should try to get infected with covid just to get an immune response.
The thing is an unvaccinated person who gets infected might get very sick. Might even die. No doubt about that. For most age groups under 55 or so the odds are very god they will not get bad sick. Over 99% recover with most doing ok.
There are to be sure some who do get very sick. Even the very young. The story seems to be that if you are fat or have some comorbidities the risk from an infection goes way up. It seems some people have decided to risk an infection over a shot. Not my issue, I figured I was at risk enough to take a chance on the shots.

I do not and have not suggested for folks to get infected on purpose.

 

[sk47]

Guess you don't understand sarcasm either, lol.

So really, instead of getting a vaccination or booster for waning anti-bodies, you should just get a mild case of Covid now and then because it might be a better way to obtain anti-bodies and a stronger immumity to Covid? That's what you are eluding to. The nose spray with live low dose of Covid might not be a bad idea in that case, lol.

Hello; No I am not going to try to get the virus. Not my plan. I just hope that if I do get exposed to the virus the immune response from the shots i took will make a difference. That seems to be the best we vaccinated can hope for at this point.

Even some of the fully vaccinated are getting bad sick and some die. It would be stupid to try to be infected on purpose.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; If I were CJJon here is where I would make a cutting remark, but I am not him. I did not state that natural immunity "withers over time". Also it is not just my understanding of how natural immunity works, most every one who has studied biology and all in the medical fields know natural immunity can be very long lasting, sometimes life long.
You are inferring my comments incorrectly.
It is like this. The antibodies are the shock troops made to go for a very specific virus by the body in large numbers by either a natural response to an infection or a response to a vaccine. Once the immune system conquers a pathogen, covid19 in this case, the virus is gone from the body. Since the antibodies are specific to the particular virus there is no need to keep them around being active forever. So if you have covid then recover those specific antibodies linger for a while, but if you are never exposed to that virus again they have nothing to do is a way to think of it. So eventually most of them come to the end of their time.
The large number of antibodies may be gone but the immune system has a memory of the virus stored. The immune system can mount a response to that pathogen months or even years later if that virus is ever encountered again. This is not a new thing just since the covid 19 virus showed up.

You also have tried to infer that my posts imply I know when the pandemic will end. I do not. I have been focusing on one particular aspect of the pandemic - those who have had the infection and recovered on their own. I have not been writing about the issues of the things which will end the pandemic. I took the stance that those with natural immunity do not need the shots.

For me, who is a two shot taker, and for those who survived an actual infection there is a chance the covid19 virus will mutate to the extent that neither immune response will cover the new mutation. Think of the flu. Much will depend on how much and how often the covid virus mutates. At some point there could be a covid mutation that none of us is immune to, not the vaccinated and not the naturally immune.
I have had the flu at least four times during my life. Spaced out so there was years and sometimes decades between infections. I say four based on how very sick I got. It is possible I had a flu many other times but was not as sick. Some seasons the flu going around may have been somewhat similar to one I had before so I had a little help in that my immune system had a close enough response that I did not get so sick. I suspect such is what is happening with the delta covid variant now. We with shots designed for alpha and those that survived the alpha strain are blessed in that delta is similar enough to alpha that we have some protection.

Sighs…
I was asking a pretty simple question. Why you think I’m trying to bait you is beyond me.

My point is, that we have not a single clue how long this immunity might last. There are PLENTY of examples of viruses that require booster shots many years after the first.

Ergo, what makes you think that this particular virus will be gone before the natural immunity wears off at some (currently) unknown point in the future?

The larger issue being that we’re specifically referring to a coronavirus, which had already developed several variants of concern over the past 18 months.

So, I’ll ask again.
If you don’t know how long natural immunity lasts (we don’t) and you don’t know how long the virus will remain “similar” to what it is now (we don’t) how do we go about discounting the use of vaccines that are at the cutting edge of the viruses evolution?

That is the longer version of my original question.

 

[Burkey]

For some clarity about “lifelong” immunity.

This was written in August of 2020. Note that the author says that the virus isn’t mutating quickly….
Fast forward a year and the results are a little different.

https://www.livescience.com/why-lifelong-immunity.html

 

[sk47]

So, I’ll ask again.
If you don’t know how long natural immunity lasts (we don’t) and you don’t know how long the virus will remain “similar” to what it is now (we don’t) how do we go about discounting the use of vaccines that are at the cutting edge of the viruses evolution?

Hello; well it seems the natural immunity is outlasting vaccine immunity as of now. So far the measures of natural immunity are showing it is still good. Since many had the covid many months before the shots were around and a third shot is being recommended by some.

My take is the natural immunity will have eyes on it for some time. If it somehow does something odd and takes an unexpected nose dive we will be told. I do not know that natural immunity will last for years any more than you know it will not. Such is to be determined.

My guess, and only a guess, is natural immunity will last a good long time. The vaccine immunity should as well if it actually causes a true immune system response which is what I have been finding so far.

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