Rotating PP Tires

[TexasRebel]

Just wanted to make sure, I thought all tires could be til I read some of these comments thanks for clarifcation

There are some tires that have a rotation direction. These can be rotated front to back, but not side to side unless you're willing to flip the tire on the wheel.

There are some tires that have an "outside". These can be rotated in the usual modified X pattern.

If you ever come across a directional tire with an "outside" marking, those can only go front to back... unless it's a staggered setup. In that case they are corner specific.

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[BrettT]

Rotated my staggered set side to side a couple of times with no issues... However, might want to ditch those 2 piece Ford OEM lug nuts though while you are at it, they are junk. I had a several that the outer SS decorative cover distorted slightly and my socket would no longer fit over them. Went to next size up socket and promptly broke the socket and rounded off the edges of the lug nut. Just do a search and you will see the scope of the problem. Ford is actually getting sued for this problem. Replaced with McGard one piece, USA made, guaranteed for life lug nuts.

+1 on this. Those two piece lug nuts are garbage. Had to replace a few on my Escape when it was in the shop for a service. So purchased a set of McGuard Chrome locking lug nuts for the Escape. Will likely replace them on my Bullitt, even though it isn't winter driven, as they likely will eventually rust. They get moisture under the cap, which then causes the lug to rust and bloats the cap. The lug is hollow, and they punched a whole through the cap to remove it.

 

[ripto]

Maybe it's in my head, but the tires seem like they are so much louder right now. This may be because I'm coming off 4 months from running winter tires, but could it be from running them in the opposite direction? No performance issues noted.

 

[Maggneto]

Maybe it's in my head, but the tires seem like they are so much louder right now. This may be because I'm coming off 4 months from running winter tires, but could it be from running them in the opposite direction? No performance issues noted.

I don't think it is in your head, I think the noise level is telling you it's time for new rear tires.

We went through 2 sets of summer tires(EB/PP) in 30k miles and they get loud as they wear down. At first I didn't rotate front to back and the rear tires lasted 8.5k miles and were very loud and crappy performance. A new set of tires makes a huge difference in noise level and performance. I finally had enough of summer only and switched to all season tires and there is a huge difference in the noise level. I don't expect the same level of performance as new summer tires, I do expect more comfort, less noise, and more safe driving for many more miles in all conditions.

My last car had staggered wheels/tires and I never swapped side to side.

 

[ripto]

I don't think it is in your head, I think the noise level is telling you it's time for new rear tires.

We went through 2 sets of summer tires(EB/PP) in 30k miles and they get loud as they wear down. At first I didn't rotate front to back and the rear tires lasted 8.5k miles and were very loud and crappy performance. A new set of tires makes a huge difference in noise level and performance. I finally had enough of summer only and switched to all season tires and there is a huge difference in the noise level. I don't expect the same level of performance as new summer tires, I do expect more comfort, less noise, and more safe driving for many more miles in all conditions.

My last car had staggered wheels/tires and I never swapped side to side.

I probably have about 8k miles on them, but I still see plenty of tread, and I don't recall hearing them as much before swapping to my winters. I may swap them back to the original positions and see how they sound.

 

[DickR]

Maybe it's in my head, but the tires seem like they are so much louder right now. This may be because I'm coming off 4 months from running winter tires, but could it be from running them in the opposite direction? No performance issues noted.

It is common for tires to make more or different noise when they have been rotated, especially if the rotation direction is reversed. Also many, if not most, tires make more noise as they wear. Combine those two possible reasons with the fact that summer and winter tires sound different from each other and the fact that you are "concerned" about the reverse rotation and it is not surprising that they "sound" different. Tread depth is the most important factor with street tires which will be driven in the rain (primarily for hydroplaning resistance).

Lots of great technical and tire specific information on https://www.tirerack.com/content/tirerack/desktop/en/tires.html and https://www.tirerack.com/content/tirerack/desktop/en/research_advice.html

 

[Maggneto]

I probably have about 8k miles on them, but I still see plenty of tread, and I don't recall hearing them as much before swapping to my winters. I may swap them back to the original positions and see how they sound.

8.5k is where my PP tires on the rear were shot and very loud. When I left the tire shop after getting new tires on the front and moving the front to rear I was shocked just how much more quiet the car was. I didn't wait for the very end of life as there are very few things that are as important as good tires, especially true on a performance car with summer tires. My EB was sideways every time I left the neighborhood.

 

[ripto]

8.5k is where my PP tires on the rear were shot and very loud. When I left the tire shop after getting new tires on the front and moving the front to rear I was shocked just how much more quiet the car was. I didn't wait for the very end of life as there are very few things that are as important as good tires, especially true on a performance car with summer tires. My EB was sideways every time I left the neighborhood.

When you say they were shot, were they at the minimum tread depth or bald?

 

[TexasRebel]

My last car had staggered wheels/tires and I never swapped side to side.

You rotated a staggered setup front to back?

...so you had the wider pair on the front?

What?

 

[Maggneto]

You rotated a staggered setup front to back?

...so you had the wider pair on the front?

What?

I didn't rotate them at all, they stayed in the same position.

 

[Maggneto]

When you say they were shot, were they at the minimum tread depth or bald?

The tires were not bald and had not reached minimal thread depth. They were very loud and the performance started to fade rapidly. Since you are using them only in summer they may be OK for more miles but here in the south we don't need snow tires. It does however still get down in the 30s and 40s making driving a bit more dangerous on half used PP tires.

 

[TexasRebel]

I didn't rotate them at all, they stayed in the same position.

oh... yeah. That passenger side rear will wear out much faster than the driver side.

 

[tom_sprecher]

oh... yeah. That passenger side rear will wear out much faster than the driver side.

Why is that? I had one go bald pretty quick, but the toe was out on that corner.

 

[TexasRebel]

Why is that? I had one go bald pretty quick, but the toe was out on that corner.

With a longitudinal mounted power plant torque on the rear end alters weight distribution and traction on each side. The driveshaft attempts to lift one side while forcing the other into the pavement. The interaction is straight forward on a solid axle vehicle, but while more complex it is still present on an IRS equipped car.

mix that with the torque biasing in the T2R and those abysmal summer tires that come stock on a PP car... my best theory on what happens is the passenger side is the low traction side and when it's cold those summer tires just want to slip. Advance trac allows that tire to slip just enough to push toque to the high traction side and get moving at which point wheel slip stops and you just go. It's not nearly as bad in the summer (what that compound is designed for). When I replaced the Pzeros in less than a year --less than 10,000 miles at that-- I hadn't rotated them. The passenger side was flat bald while the driver side was worn, but not quite to the bars. The alignment checked out in the green all around.

now I flip my Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+ tires side to side every 7-10k. They last a whole lot longer. I'm on my 2nd set, but that's because my front lower rear control arm bushings went bad and threw my alignment out. I could've replaced the fronts only, but opted for all 4.

 

[ripto]

I ended up swapping the tires back to the original position to see if the noise I was hearing was from the rotational direction being reversed. It sounds about the same. I did notice my fronts seemed to be wearing evenly, and my rears both seemed to be wearing more on the insides than outsides. So it seems like that rotating them side to side really wouldn't have helped much with tread wear. I may just monitor them for uneven wear across the tread, but having more wear on the inside of both won't be corrected by rotating since it will still be the inside on the other side.

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