return-less fuel systems thoughts and ideas

[Midwestracer]

I have heard of a lot of issues with the antigravity. I bought one but never installed it. I think these cars have to much electrical demand for that battery. That me be your entire problem.

Ya I'm definitely wondering that also getting a cable so I can use forscan and go through the BMS settings and see if I can make it work sucks is a super light battery and has more power then my AMG

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[Midwestracer]

One test I might do is just swap back to my small AGM batter and see if the fuel is still a problem but I'm worried about hurting the engine also

 

[engineermike]

…. the stock power wire that supplies power to the FPDM and, thus, the BAP was losing nearly 2 volts. I think he's going to upgrade the power wire to see if that helps.

He upgraded the power wire to 6 awg to supply the bap and got 1 more volt at the pump (post bap and fpdm). This 5% increase also resulted in 5% more amps and a solid 11% increase in power supplied to the fuel pump.

So the interesting learning here is a few things.

1. The obvious that larger power wire is needed to get an advantage from the 22v baps.
2. Supposedly no tune is required for these but the fpdm still cuts the voltage down depending on how the tune is set up. With any bap you’ll need to increase the max fuel pump voltage in the tune until you achieve 49% duty cycle command in the log. Otherwise the pump only sees the bap rated voltage x duty cycle / 50. The commanded duty cycle will top out around 40-43% if the max voltage number is left stock.
3. In order to get the idle fuel pressure in control with any bap, the fpc slope and offset, and sometimes the min duty cycle will all need to be changed in the tune.
4. If you’re running a 22v bap, you’ll get closer to the 22 volts if you increase system voltage. I know 15.2 can be done safely. The stock gen3 pcm has the ability to increase voltage *only* during high fuel flow demand (which is pretty awesome, thank you Ford), which is what I did, but most pro tuners don’t do this.

 

[DougS550]

He upgraded the power wire to 6 awg to supply the bap and got 1 more volt at the pump (post bap and fpdm). This 5% increase also resulted in 5% more amps and a solid 11% increase in power supplied to the fuel pump.

So the interesting learning here is a few things.

1. The obvious that larger power wire is needed to get an advantage from the 22v baps.
2. Supposedly no tune is required for these but the fpdm still cuts the voltage down depending on how the tune is set up. With any bap you’ll need to increase the max fuel pump voltage in the tune until you achieve 49% duty cycle command in the log. Otherwise the pump only sees the bap rated voltage x duty cycle / 50. The commanded duty cycle will top out around 40-43% if the max voltage number is left stock.
3. In order to get the idle fuel pressure in control with any bap, the fpc slope and offset, and sometimes the min duty cycle will all need to be changed in the tune.
4. If you’re running a 22v bap, you’ll get closer to the 22 volts if you increase system voltage. I know 15.2 can be done safely. The stock gen3 pcm has the ability to increase voltage *only* during high fuel flow demand (which is pretty awesome, thank you Ford), which is what I did, but most pro tuners don’t do this.

So Mike. Are we any further towards a Returnless fuel system with Bucket, maybe PWM to regulate/vary power to the pumps to keep them cool and extend pump life?

 

[engineermike]

So Mike. Are we any further towards a Returnless fuel system with Bucket, maybe PWM to regulate/vary power to the pumps to keep them cool and extend pump life?

I can only tell you my status and plans….

As it stands, I’m running e85 on a Whipple with a 3.25 pulley, dw400, 22v bap, NO power wire upgrade and it works very well with fuel overhead and pcm protections in place. Should be around 850 rwhp, passes emissions, flex fuel, etc. if I decide to drop a couple of pulley sizes there’s more fuel available by increasing the power wire size, lowering rail pressure, and upgrading port injectors (I’m running predator 55’s).

If I pop this motor my spare is a predator short block with 9.5/1 compression. it will need more air and fuel to match my current power levels due to the compression ratio, assuming I continue using e85. I have my doubts as to whether this fuel system will still suffice in that scenario. My plan is to use a stock gt500 bucket and line (for the filter) and I already have those parts. Based on the amp draw data we’ve gathered, I believe we can run both gt500 pumps off a single stock fpdm which retains all stock control and diagnostics. If it proves too much load on a single fpdm, I will wire in a pair of them, but that will sacrifice a small piece of the oem diagnostics. I honestly don’t know why this route is t more popular. Sai Li is close but he disables the pwm modulation and tells you not to add the fuel filter, both of which I disagree with.

 

[Timbuck]

I was trying to find info of Jesko fuel system and found this. Says RH on it so I’m assuming so they run 2 of these either side of the tank ?? i Think I remember reading on here somewhere that it uses a non-return system ? Is that right ?
I was trying to find a PDF of their fuel system set up.


3 injectors per cylinder , 24lbs of boost and 1200hp on pump 91 is pretty impressive , 1600 on 32lbs on e85.


https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/255477216084

 

[DougS550]

I can only tell you my status and plans….

As it stands, I’m running e85 on a Whipple with a 3.25 pulley, dw400, 22v bap, NO power wire upgrade and it works very well with fuel overhead and pcm protections in place. Should be around 850 rwhp, passes emissions, flex fuel, etc. if I decide to drop a couple of pulley sizes there’s more fuel available by increasing the power wire size, lowering rail pressure, and upgrading port injectors (I’m running predator 55’s).

If I pop this motor my spare is a predator short block with 9.5/1 compression. it will need more air and fuel to match my current power levels due to the compression ratio, assuming I continue using e85. I have my doubts as to whether this fuel system will still suffice in that scenario. My plan is to use a stock gt500 bucket and line (for the filter) and I already have those parts. Based on the amp draw data we’ve gathered, I believe we can run both gt500 pumps off a single stock fpdm which retains all stock control and diagnostics. If it proves too much load on a single fpdm, I will wire in a pair of them, but that will sacrifice a small piece of the oem diagnostics. I honestly don’t know why this route is t more popular. Sai Li is close but he disables the pwm modulation and tells you not to add the fuel filter, both of which I disagree with.

Agree, I would not disable the pwm or not install a fuel filter.
Questions:
- What do you think of the KPM 1500 with PWM controller?
- If I ran like 110 race fuel which is not ethanol or methanol, the flow rate should be sufficient enough to run my stock/oem power supply, which I am currently utilizing with my whipple stage 2 1050 injectors, 3.75, DW400 WITH NO BAP.
I just don't want to install a fuel return system but will if necessary to run 850whp.
Can the whipple fuel tails handle 850whp flow?

 

[engineermike]

- What do you think of the KPM 1500 with PWM controller?

Those appear to be brushed pumps. I don't know which ones they are but so far I haven't seen any that perform better than the DW400 once you install a venturi and check valve. And, the DW400 is only incrementally better than stock. Which means the KPM1500 really doesn't look much better to me than a stock GT500 fuel module, if at all. I haven't dug deep into those systems so I don't know why they replace the stock FPDM with their own PWM driver and if it's still PCM controlled. However, you do still have the issue around a lack of a fuel filter. I highly recommend not going without a fuel filter because the GDI pump needs clean fuel.

- If I ran like 110 race fuel which is not ethanol or methanol, the flow rate should be sufficient enough to run my stock/oem power supply, which I am currently utilizing with my whipple stage 2 1050 injectors, 3.75, DW400 WITH NO BAP.....I just don't want to install a fuel return system but will if necessary to run 850whp....Can the whipple fuel tails handle 850whp flow?

I'm running that same power range on E85 and the stock power supply, stock whipple rails,3.25 pulley, DW400/BAP, etc...so I don't know why anyone else couldn't...unless they're hamstrung by their tuners. Of course, gasoline gives you a lot more latitude than ethanol.

 

[Midwestracer]

So I just installed the 2020 gt500 pumps and bucket with the dual crossover and the pumps are definitely different then thr gt350 pumps I was running, still running the jms bap but turned down to 18v and it's keeping up OK might try upgrading the wiring but can always put back to 22v logs were great on 22v on 18v saw some fuel pressure drop at wot but afr and lamba looked great also stft good

 

[engineermike]

@Midwestracer what are you logging with?

 

[Midwestracer]

Hpt ngauge

 

[engineermike]

Can we post hpl logs here? I’d like to see yours with lift pump duty cycle, rail pressure, fuel flow, etc.

 

[Midwestracer]

Can we post hpl logs here? I’d like to see yours with lift pump duty cycle, rail pressure, fuel flow, etc.

I belive we can it's just and excel file when I get home I'll post a few been playing with thr pids Def have fp DC and flp and hp rail and afr and lambda

 

[DougS550]

Those appear to be brushed pumps. I don't know which ones they are but so far I haven't seen any that perform better than the DW400 once you install a venturi and check valve. And, the DW400 is only incrementally better than stock. Which means the KPM1500 really doesn't look much better to me than a stock GT500 fuel module, if at all. I haven't dug deep into those systems so I don't know why they replace the stock FPDM with their own PWM driver and if it's still PCM controlled. However, you do still have the issue around a lack of a fuel filter. I highly recommend not going without a fuel filter because the GDI pump needs clean fuel.



I'm running that same power range on E85 and the stock power supply, stock whipple rails,3.25 pulley, DW400/BAP, etc...so I don't know why anyone else couldn't...unless they're hamstrung by their tuners. Of course, gasoline gives you a lot more latitude than ethanol.

Mike. Is their a Drop In fuel hat and bucket assembly which I could install and supply a power supply appropriate to the amp load, which one would you think I could use and not pay $3000 for the KPM which looks like stock mustang hat/bucket assembly. Thanks for your help.

 

[engineermike]

@DougS550 I just don't know enough about it to make recommendations. If it were me I'd be asking questions about 1) current draw on the stock fpdm and wiring, 2) lack of a fuel filter, 3) fuel level sensor, 4) how the capacity compares to a stock GT500 setup since we don't know what pumps are included, 5) does it include check valves. The stock GT500 fuel pump module is under $500 so I'd be hard-pressed to spend 3x that on something I can't quantify the advantages of and may only be incrementally better (or worse).

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