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return-less fuel systems thoughts and ideas

Angrey

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The OE fuel lines can "handle" as much power as you'd like, it's simply a matter of how hard the pumps have to work to feed fuel at the proper flow at the rails.

A crude rule in hydrodynamics is that if you double the size of a line, you quadruple the flow (at equivalent pressures). Of course this depends on the particular characteristics of the fluid, viscosity, temp, etc.

But the point is, the pressure drop across a 6 AN line is going to be more than across an 8AN line and the losses at fittings are each higher as well.

Combine that with the fact that at some point, there's a transition between gasoline to higher content ethanol (and the flow increase not just from additional combustion and power but from the energy density) and determining a rule of thumb number gets difficult.

I also think you're both probably talking different OE line sizes (I'm guessing the GT500 lines are different).

This is largely the same conversation had around the whipple fuel rails (which feature a 6AN restriction). While it's not TOTALLY fruitless to bring fuel to the front using a larger fuel line, if it all has to squeeze through a 6AN fitting into the rails, the benefits of a larger line are greatly reduced (you're basically just getting a reduction across the fluid friction of the line/fittings to that point).

When you look at the efficiency curves for many typically sized pumps, a pressure drop of say 5 psi from the rear to the front can result in a more than corresponding increase in pump effort to deliver fuel to the rails at the desired pressure/flow.

At least some of the cheaper fuel systems that contemplated multi-pump had cheap "manifold" assemblies at the bucket which squeezed through small diameter feeders to get to a deceptively larger output size.
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Cordero1

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You guys could be making some bank selling GT500 plug & play set ups for the GTs if the stock GT line is the same size for the rest of us noobs kinda like Sai Li. If any one here has seen those kits they are cheap af, O'Reilly parts & hoses that I'm sure they're making good money off of.
 

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I currently run e85 on a stock gen 3 fuel system with a BAP only at 18 volts. A drop in pump is probably recommended from the testing I've done. Also keep in mind that upping the voltage to 22 on a stock pump or any pump and it's life span would be greatly impacted by the BAP you are running... I have the JMS set to bump voltage at 50% throttle input. If you have another BAP that is constantly running higher voltages, then your pump will die faster.
 

Cordero1

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Never mind, guess Sai li kit is a gt500 pump set up. But I don't understand why they have you add a return line if it can just be made into a return less set up.
 

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Angrey

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I currently run e85 on a stock gen 3 fuel system with a BAP only at 18 volts. A drop in pump is probably recommended from the testing I've done. Also keep in mind that upping the voltage to 22 on a stock pump or any pump and it's life span would be greatly impacted by the BAP you are running... I have the JMS set to bump voltage at 50% throttle input. If you have another BAP that is constantly running higher voltages, then your pump will die faster.
Comparing the DI system is a bit apples/oranges. How much of the load is the DI high pressure portion handling?
 

engineermike

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@Cordero1 it looks like sai li finally updated their bucket to gt500 spec. But they seem to have taken the easy way out and just run them 100% all the time and regulate pressure with the return regulator. Obviously this isn’t ideal. Furthermore they still don’t offer any sort of filter, which is bad news for the gdi pump especially. This is why the gt500 line is needed because ford put an external filter under the car. If you wanted to retrofit a filter under the hood then the gt500 bucket would work with the stock line.

@Pistol_91 most baps still work off of the pwm signal so the pump isn’t actually seeing the boosted voltage all the time….unless you did like sai li and bypass the pwm. And actually most times limit pump voltage to something below system voltage, so they never even hit 100% dc which means your 18v bap is not actually getting 15-16 volts to the pump. You can actually get 15 volts to the pump without a bap by boosting system voltage under high fuel demand situations but most tuners don’t take advantage of this.
 

Cordero1

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@Cordero1 it looks like sai li finally updated their bucket to gt500 spec. But they seem to have taken the easy way out and just run them 100% all the time and regulate pressure with the return regulator. Obviously this isn’t ideal. Furthermore they still don’t offer any sort of filter, which is bad news for the gdi pump especially. This is why the gt500 line is needed because ford put an external filter under the car. If you wanted to retrofit a filter under the hood then the gt500 bucket would work with the stock line.

@Pistol_91 most baps still work off of the pwm signal so the pump isn’t actually seeing the boosted voltage all the time….unless you did like sai li and bypass the pwm. And actually most times limit pump voltage to something below system voltage, so they never even hit 100% dc which means your 18v bap is not actually getting 15-16 volts to the pump. You can actually get 15 volts to the pump without a bap by boosting system voltage under high fuel demand situations but most tuners don’t take advantage of this.
Thank you that is good to know. I wasn't very impressed by their 1st kit so I wasn't planning to go that route. I'm still doing my home work on which direction to take & I feel like return less is ideal along with a bucket style kit.
 

engineermike

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Comparing the DI system is a bit apples/oranges. How much of the load is the DI high pressure portion handling?
The di system can help with the port injection limitations but not the lift pump. 100% of the fuel still has to come from the lift pump.

In these combos around 850 rwhp on e85, the gdi system can carry 45-50% of the fuel injector capacity, which is why we’re all getting away with 47-55# port injectors even though many parts pushers and big tuners make everyone believe they need 1050’s. But it all still comes from the lift pump.
 

Angrey

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The di system can help with the port injection limitations but not the lift pump. 100% of the fuel still has to come from the lift pump.

In these combos around 850 rwhp on e85, the gdi system can carry 45-50% of the fuel injector capacity, which is why we’re all getting away with 47-55# port injectors even though many parts pushers and big tuners make everyone believe they need 1050’s. But it all still comes from the lift pump.
It may flow through the lift pump, but I'm curious as to the load differences (if any) between a port only setup and a split at the engine bay with half the flow being lifted again with the high pressure system.

Would be curious to see the efficiency curve effects of a pump that's serial feeding another, higher pressure pump. I suppose from a purely physical standpoint, the pump doesn't recognize the difference and simply needs to deliver the total amount of fuel (regardless of the split).

The one thing it probably would do however is allow the DI system to pick up the slack if the PI side is struggling. On a pure pre-gen3 setup, if the pumps are struggling to provide adequate flow, and the tuner runs out of injector, there's no DI system there to help cover the bills. In that sense, I'm guessing the Gen3 + fuel setups can be adequate for higher total HP outputs than the traditional PI only systems.
 

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engineermike

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I suppose from a purely physical standpoint, the pump doesn't recognize the difference and simply needs to deliver the total amount of fuel (regardless of the split).
Yes, this.

The one thing it probably would do however is allow the DI system to pick up the slack if the PI side is struggling. On a pure pre-gen3 setup, if the pumps are struggling to provide adequate flow, and the tuner runs out of injector, there's no DI system there to help cover the bills. In that sense, I'm guessing the Gen3 + fuel setups can be adequate for higher total HP outputs than the traditional PI only systems.
This is what I was getting at. The gen3 is way more forgiving than gen2 for a few reasons. One is the di covers 45-90% of your injector demand so the port injectors can be smaller. Secondly, the gen3 has a lift pressure sensor and modulates injector pulsewidth as a function of actual lift pressure, so even when your pressure falls it compensates and doesn’t go lean. Gen2 calculates rail pressure but is blind to actual fuel pressure. And finally the gen3 will close the throttle when it runs out of fuel system capacity and I’ve confirmed this with testing (unless defeated by the tuner). I don’t believe the gen2 does that either, but I think the computer is capable.
 
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Midwestracer

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well the track wasn't good to me and this topic is hitting home now I did run a PB 10.50 but mph was down and P008A code popped and ran a log and at WOT FLP is dropping severely from a high of 100 down into the 20s my FRP holds out @2800-2900 after FLP drops stft get up there to 20.
I did find out my jms BAP is running at 22v not the 18 I had thought. Now i am running into another issue and idk if its causing this whole problem but when launching hard and going full throttle allot of times my nav display and all my gauges turn off them i get a msg its trying to save power for some reason this all started after i installed the antigravity battery from the agm i had going to swap back and test but i reset the bms with the lights and brake thing and the log never shows any big drop in Volts i have the fathouse catch can batter mount so the agm was getting drained a lot from parasitic draw when but dont have room for a big one. new car way newer system for me but im learning and ty for any help you give guys
 
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Midwestracer

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log is kinda long was today out on the streets of mexico but traffic ya know towards the bottom i made the pull
 

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bankyf

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well the track wasn't good to me and this topic is hitting home now I did run a PB 10.50 but mph was down and P008A code popped and ran a log and at WOT FLP is dropping severely from a high of 100 down into the 20s my FRP holds out @2800-2900 after FLP drops stft get up there to 20.
I did find out my jms BAP is running at 22v not the 18 I had thought. Now i am running into another issue and idk if its causing this whole problem but when launching hard and going full throttle allot of times my nav display and all my gauges turn off them i get a msg its trying to save power for some reason this all started after i installed the antigravity battery from the agm i had going to swap back and test but i reset the bms with the lights and brake thing and the log never shows any big drop in Volts i have the fathouse catch can batter mount so the agm was getting drained a lot from parasitic draw when but dont have room for a big one. new car way newer system for me but im learning and ty for any help you give guys
I have heard of a lot of issues with the antigravity. I bought one but never installed it. I think these cars have to much electrical demand for that battery. That me be your entire problem.
 
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Angrey

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The problem isn't so much AntiGravity, they make a top notch product. The problem is Ford's ****ed up BMS system. It's so overly complicated (thanks to the EPA) that the system has difficulties in many situations recognizing that the battery is fine or in other situations, it thinks the battery is fine and because of the table top nature of LION batteries, by the time it senses that things need tending, it's way too late.

There's an entire War and Peace thread on here about it. Set aside the "restart" reserve, even if you run a battery without restart, it's meant for only limited track use or short trips. I've tried some unique things within my tune to improve the charging state (and eventually bit the bullet to a high output alternator) but throwing a Lithium in the mix just added several other layers of complexity.

Bottom line if your total system draw ends up exceeding the threshold of what the BMS system recognizes as normal, it'll start going into power saving modes. This really shouldn't happen because the output on Lions is WAY better than a typical battery, but if the system voltage isn't exactly how the BMS system wants, it starts to take measures.
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