Prices are on the rise......

[Wildcardfox]

Guys,

We have hit the ceiling on some of the technologies used in these cars (engine displacement,suspension/magnetic ride,differential, steering rack, 6 piston brakes etc). Point is, to develop another car, isnt all about redeveloping all of these technologies to their next step up (which there isnt). You can see from Porsche to Ferrari to Corvette to BMW, all manufacturers use a derivation of the previous technology. Same engine, but improved timing so here is 10 hp, or same engine but individual throttle bodies so better throttle response and 2 hp. More downforce, better tires, and a little weight diet. Take the car to a track and show it improved X%, and it sells like hot cakes.

What am I trying to say? Its not going to take 10 years to make another GT350. Ford was going to stop production after 2 years. What happened? It went on for another 3+ years and they ended up producing almost 20,000 units total. Why? Because it sold, because it made them so much money. Why would they stop? What sells best? Marketing does. Image does. GT350 went a long way helping Ford’s image. Why would they stop? Makes no sense.

They’ll tune the same engine, call it vodoo 2.0, same trans/diff, better suspension and steering, bigger brakes, better tires and sell it for $5k more than the last one. And it will sell.

I don’t fully agree, one because Ford doesn’t own the rights to the GT350 name so they have to license its use with Shelby International, they do however own the rights to the GT500 and Cobra names, but the Shelby badging is a license agreement as well. That licensing agreement loomed large in why the 350 stayed in production and why it was discontinued.

Why was it continued? Because Ford promised their dealers that they would have a GT350 and GT500 for sale in showrooms for the first time in 35 years, and the 500 development ran longer than expected so they extended the 350 run until the 500 was for sale in 2020. After that one year, the 350 was discontinued as they had both fulfilled the promise to dealers and the license agreement was at its end.

Although other manufacturers may repackage the same thing and offer it as new, we can only look at Ford’s history to have some insight into what they might do. No precious cobra or GT500 generation has used the same engine package. 4.6L naturally aspirated in the cobra, then the terminator motor (which yes was an iteration of the 4.6 modular, it was still the same generation of car the SN95); 5.4L gen 1 GT500, and 5.8L gen 2—(both were still in the older modular engine architecture); now a derivative of the coyote family, the GT350’s voodoo and GT500’s predator engine emerged. So engine packages will be based on the current engine architecture technology, so could see a the voodoo return? Based on Ford’s history that does not repeat, I would say no. I think it’s more likely that a future engine would be larger in displacement and be a different engine, but something that builds upon the lessons learned in this second generation GT350, if it is in fact an engine that is based off of current architecture. As for the car itself, Ford is not longer in the business of rehashing chassis like they did with the SN95, which was the same chassis as the Fox body. Ford is all about innovating and I believe they would disagree that they have reached the zenith, but time is running out with electric being required in 15 years and will they put budget into developing a new gas powered engine or shift their focus?

The name will not go away but the fact that Ford is not in control of the trademark that may mean the 350 will be less frequent than the 500, but with electrification on the horizon it will not be long before both the 350 and 500 become battery powered vehicles, so the clock is running out for amazing gas powered motors like we see now.

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[PP0001]

I don’t fully agree, one because Ford doesn’t own the rights to the GT350 name so they have to license its use with Shelby International, they do however own the rights to the GT500 and Cobra names, but the Shelby badging is a license agreement as well. That licensing agreement loomed large in why the 350 stayed in production and why it was discontinued.

Why was it continued? Because Ford promised their dealers that they would have a GT350 and GT500 for sale in showrooms for the first time in 35 years, and the 500 development ran longer than expected so they extended the 350 run until the 500 was for sale in 2020. After that one year, the 350 was discontinued as they had both fulfilled the promise to dealers and the license agreement was at its end.

Although other manufacturers may repackage the same thing and offer it as new, we can only look at Ford’s history to have some insight into what they might do. No precious cobra or GT500 generation has used the same engine package. 4.6L naturally aspirated in the cobra, then the terminator motor (which yes was an iteration of the 4.6 modular, it was still the same generation of car the SN95); 5.4L gen 1 GT500, and 5.8L gen 2—(both were still in the older modular engine architecture); now a derivative of the coyote family, the GT350’s voodoo and GT500’s predator engine emerged. So engine packages will be based on the current engine architecture technology, so could see a the voodoo return? Based on Ford’s history that does not repeat, I would say no. I think it’s more likely that a future engine would be larger in displacement and be a different engine, but something that builds upon the lessons learned in this second generation GT350, if it is in fact an engine that is based off of current architecture. As for the car itself, Ford is not longer in the business of rehashing chassis like they did with the SN95, which was the same chassis as the Fox body. Ford is all about innovating and I believe they would disagree that they have reached the zenith, but time is running out with electric being required in 15 years and will they put budget into developing a new gas powered engine or shift their focus?

The name will not go away but the fact that Ford is not in control of the trademark that may mean the 350 will be less frequent than the 500, but with electrification on the horizon it will not be long before both the 350 and 500 become battery powered vehicles, so the clock is running out for amazing gas powered motors like we see now.

All terrific information and as you mentioned it unfortunately took Ford 50 years to finally have both a GT350 and GT500 built at the same assembly plant and of dealerships showrooms at the same time.

No question that the majority of us Mustang enthusiasts are in love with the Ford ICE and all that it brings to the performance arena including one of the best sounding engines of all time namely the FPC engine especially when placed in Sport Mode and when shifting between 5000 RPM and all the way up to the 8250 redline.

One of my heroes at Ford is Dave Pericak who happens to be one very cool car guy and was the chief engineer for "Project 747" which was the internal code name for the 2012 Boss 302 program that was launched back in late 2009.

It is my understanding that Dave loves the Boss 302 model so much that he has a 2012 Black/Red Laguna Seca model still in his garage.

Shortly after that timeline Dave became head of Ford Performance but then stepped down after 3 years as Director of FP and is now Global Director-Ford Icons.

Dave was very instrumental with respect to the development of the all electric Mustang Mach-E SUV and now has spent a great deal of his time developing an all electric Mustang Cobra Jet 1400 prototype racecar.

Initial quarter mile times for the all electric Mustang Cobra Jet 1400 which develops over 1400 HP and 1100 FT/LBS torque come in at ~170 MPH in ~8 seconds.

Just another example of the Ford Motor Company looking outside of the box and the direction that key people such as Dave Pericak are taking at Dearborn and Romeo which certainly suggests that unfortunately the ICE is heading for a close at the Blue Oval Brand down the road.

 

[UnhandledException]

Actually when your baseline is the outgoing GT350, you have so much room to improve due to corners that were cut in the current gen car (no offense). And I say this in a positive tone.

They can do the following

- Squeeze more hp out of 5.2 liter FPC by improving timing, exhaust tuning, lighter crankshaft and stronger pistons (it sounds very complex, but it isnt. If Corvette can do it, so can Shelby).

- Improve the CF package pricing so that wheels and wing can be purchased by more folks.
- Add CF roof as an option
- Bring back the CF driveshaft
- Adapt the magna ride 4.0 that C8 corvette uses, tune suspension for better handling
- Improve sway bars/lower control arms (again, $300-400 worth of hardware coupled with software upgrades can add up to seconds in a track)
- Add a ceramic brake option
- Lower the weight of the car (a very long list here is possible since its a very heavy car).
- Use R compound cheater tires like Porsche does

Even if they do only 80% of the above, the car will be noticeably faster around a track.

Lastly and I think this is the point that needs to be remembered, more isnt better. Porsche’s 992 GT3 is an example for American car manufacturers that you dont need 100hp more in each generation and crank everything up to improve over the outgoing generation. They have literally taken the same engine (plus ITBs but that was mostly to negate the effects of particulate filters), same trans, diff, same wheel material, same weight, added wishbone suspension and squeezed some insane almost 20 seconds in Nurburgring out of the car. Efficiency is the key. No you dont need exotic materials. I own a GT3RS and I have spent countless hours under this car and put thousands of miles on it. There is nothing earth shattering about it (other than the engine). In fact my ZR1 is far more exotic with far more CF components and bigger ceramic brakes and substantially more complex coolant system (GT3 has 3 radiators vs 13 in ZR1 yet I could never get 200F oil temp in GT3 whereas even with 13, ZR1 hits 230 with ease).

It can be done and I dont think it would be anywhere near as hard as making the first gen GT350.

 

[Rev Happy]

Ford was going to stop production after 2 years.

So you're saying they only planned to have production from 2015-2016? The 2015s weren't really available to normal buyers since it was such a limited production that went mostly to VIPs. I don't think Ford ever came out and said "We're only planning to make the 350 for an X number of years". @PP0001, correct me if I'm wrong.

In general if they do make another GT350, and it doesn't have a FPC, that's going to be a downgrade to me personally.

 

[Tomster]

Actually when your baseline is the outgoing GT350, you have so much room to improve due to corners that were cut in the current gen car (no offense). And I say this in a positive tone.

They can do the following

- Squeeze more hp out of 5.2 liter FPC by improving timing, exhaust tuning, lighter crankshaft and stronger pistons (it sounds very complex, but it isnt. If Corvette can do it, so can Shelby).

- Improve the CF package pricing so that wheels and wing can be purchased by more folks.
- Add CF roof as an option
- Bring back the CF driveshaft
- Adapt the magna ride 4.0 that C8 corvette uses, tune suspension for better handling
- Improve sway bars/lower control arms (again, $300-400 worth of hardware coupled with software upgrades can add up to seconds in a track)
- Add a ceramic brake option
- Lower the weight of the car (a very long list here is possible since its a very heavy car).
- Use R compound cheater tires like Porsche does

Even if they do only 80% of the above, the car will be noticeably faster around a track.

Lastly and I think this is the point that needs to be remembered, more isnt better. Porsche’s 992 GT3 is an example for American car manufacturers that you dont need 100hp more in each generation and crank everything up to improve over the outgoing generation. They have literally taken the same engine (plus ITBs but that was mostly to negate the effects of particulate filters), same trans, diff, same wheel material, same weight, added wishbone suspension and squeezed some insane almost 20 seconds in Nurburgring out of the car. Efficiency is the key. No you dont need exotic materials. I own a GT3RS and I have spent countless hours under this car and put thousands of miles on it. There is nothing earth shattering about it (other than the engine). In fact my ZR1 is far more exotic with far more CF components and bigger ceramic brakes and substantially more complex coolant system (GT3 has 3 radiators vs 13 in ZR1 yet I could never get 200F oil temp in GT3 whereas even with 13, ZR1 hits 230 with ease).

It can be done and I dont think it would be anywhere near as hard as making the first gen GT350.

But you can't do anything about the heavy s550 chasis. This is where I hope the s650 comes in.

For what it is, the 350 isn't bad but you can only do so much with that boat anchor of a chassis.

 

[PP0001]

So you're saying they only planned to have production from 2015-2016? The 2015s weren't really available to normal buyers since it was such a limited production that went mostly to VIPs. I don't think Ford ever came out and said "We're only planning to make the 350 for an X number of years". @PP0001, correct me if I'm wrong.

In general if they do make another GT350, and it doesn't have a FPC, that's going to be a downgrade to me personally.

Totally agreed that it would be very difficult for Ford to come out with a 3rd generation GT350/R that would up the 2015 to 2020 cars.

Early on I was very fortunate to meet with some key FP individuals prior to and shortly after the launch of the 50th Anniversary 2015 GT350/R's and during that timeline I was very fortunate and humbled to be allocated "F0077" which was a Black/Blue Track Pack car.

During our various conversations it was made quite clear to me that there was a great deal of R&D cost surrounding not only the development of the exotic 5.2L FPC engine for the 2nd Gen GT350/R's but also substantial R&D costs incurred pertaining to the new design of the new Shelby from the windshield forward along with a great deal of engineering and cost centered around the suspension, transmission, brakes and steering.

Based on Ford's initial investments and subsequent conversations it was made clear to me that this would not be just a 2 year run for the new GT350/R and that the production model run would last for numerous of years and could if fact replicate the exact same number of years (6) from the 1st generation GT350's namely from 1965 to 1970.

As many of us know that Ford has a long, colorful and successful history of racing along with building some outstanding HP vehicles over many decades and absolutely love their successful heritage and outstanding history.

Is it a coincidence that both the 1st and 2nd generation GT350's mirrored each other when it comes to total production years namely 6, I suggest not!

Lastly, I noticed an article written by Hagerty just a few days ago which centered around "Market Trends" which went onto say "The modern GT350 is already on it's way to becoming collectible" which certainly doesn't hurt the values of our cool cars going forward and suggest that is good news for all of us owners.

Being an old guy I don't have the expertise that many of you do in order to list the Hagerty link on here but if someone can post that link for others to view I suggest that it is an article worth reading.

 

[wingnutt]

done, and done...

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/modern-gt350-becoming-collectible/

 

[PP0001]

done, and done...

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/modern-gt350-becoming-collectible/

Way smarter than the average bear!!

 

[SmokinAces]

Surprised they where quoting total production numbers. Was not aware Ford announced that info for 2020. Great article.

 

[Teej1911]

done, and done...

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/modern-gt350-becoming-collectible/

Ahh!! You beat me to it!! As I was reading the article today, I thought to myself, 'I know exactly where this needs to go...'. Great read, and the last sentence was perfect.

 

[Scoobs]

Good Hagerty article but the writer was slightly misinformed about the 2019 R model having no changes. Granted they were only recalibrated ABS and solid rotors but the first one he didn't mention and the second one he thought was a 2020 R model change.

 

[DrumReaper]

Great article... I was a little miffed to see no mention to the 2019 engine updates.

@PP0001, only 6 Supermans (Spidermans in your case) made in 16MY.

 

[PP0001]

Great article... I was a little miffed to see no mention to the 2019 engine updates.

@PP0001, only 6 Supermans (Spidermans in your case) made in 16MY.

Good catch Fred and only 6 out of 660 Race Red cars for 2016 is not very many which suggests that not that many enthusiasts like that color/stripe combination but it works for me.

Another Race Red color combination that I like a lot comes with a Black roof and would certainly like to purchase this 2019 Pilot Production R model sometime down the road!

Note the very early production date for this PP car.

 

[DrumReaper]

Good catch Fred and only 6 out of 660 Race Red cars for 2016 is not very many which suggests that not that many enthusiasts like that color/stripe combination but it works for me.

Another Race Red color combination that I like a lot comes with a Black roof and would certainly like to purchase this 2019 Pilot Production R model sometime down the road!

Note the very early production date for this PP car.

If I could’ve had the Superman color combo on my 16R, I so would’ve.

 

[460Fred]

So the blue stripes outside of Oxford White are a little on the rare side.
I’ve been talked into keeping the stripes from the Mrs. ok, ok they grew on me as well.

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