Power Pack 3 feedback

Discussion in 'V8 5.0L Engine / Mods: Bolt-ons, Exhaust, Tuning' started by MustangGuy, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. MustangGuy

    MustangGuy Well-Known Member

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    Calling all PP3 owners. What has been your experience.

    Did you dyno your car and see the gains advertised by Ford?
    Did it disable your knock sensors and cause pinging?
    How is the drivability?
    Why did you choose to install the PP3 ?
     
  2. v8hgt

    v8hgt Well-Known Member

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    Pp3 hardware but AED custom tune software here.

    No pinging. Knock sensors still work, a hard gear change can set them off and pull a little timing. As per stock behaviour of the knock system.

    Drivability is ok but it’s very different from stock, or even stock with custom tune.
    Compared to totally stock it feels the same to approx 3000 revs where in gentle driving using small throttle openings it goes a bit soft until 3500 rpm where it returns to stock feel. Wot you don’t notice any softness here.

    Compared to stock hardware and a custom tune it feels a bit gutless to 4000 rpm.

    However I did a back to back test on the road in 3rd gear from 2000 rpm to the rev limiter with stock hardware and AED tune vs PP3 hardware and AED tune.

    I then cut it to show 40mph to 80mph so a nice road use case. The pp3 is approx 0.5 sec quicker in this test.

    Which is a bit disappointing. Until you measure 40-100 mph. Using stock hardware you need to change gear at 80mph. With the pp3 it pulls harder and harder so 80-100 takes 2.6 seconds which is quick.
    The problem with manual cars is that the gearbox isn’t that slick at high revs which rather negates the point of reving to 7500rpm unless you have an auto car or a tremec box swap.

    After lots of running in normal road conditions im not sure if I prefer it or not. On a track it would be quicker for sure, but for day to day driving I suspect a pp1 or pp2 is a better bet.
     
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  3. TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    While I have the PP2 and not the PP3, I have talked to several PP3 owners, one of which did the PP2 prior. Not one has said they wished they had stayed with the PP2 even though the PP2 was very good. The second generation 5.0 rotating assembly is almost entirely from the Boss 302 with a few minor tweaks or improvements beyond that (heads are cast for example instead of machined, but flow just as well).

    The 5.0 doesn't have the displacement to make as much power lower down or in the mid-range as the bigger 6.2L and 6.4L cam in block setups from Chevy and Dodge, but they can't rev out either. Just two different ways to get there.

    PP3 capitalizes on the 2nd Gen 5.0's capabilities to make the highest average power in each gear. On a drag strip however you not going to run any quicker with a PP3 than you would with a PP2. Why? Gearing.

    The gearing doesn't allow you to apply more average power in a 1/4 mile run than PP2 with the same gearing because your not tapping out 4th gear before you cross the finish line.

    On a track or roll racing is where PP3 will come into it's own. If your dragging an SS or RT Scat Pack, they may pull on you for a second or two as you don't have the mid-range to compete out right, but once you start to get up into the higher RPM range you'll come back and after that the ratios are close enough from 4th to 5th that your still well within the meat of the power band and making a much higher average power than the SS and even the RT Scat (at least stock) with quite a bit less weight than the RT Scat Pack.

    On the track you can put down a higher average power than either of the above. The short gearing of the GT with the high revving nature of the 5.0 work well together especially with 3.73's.

    Eventually I may upgrade to the Power Pack 3 myself or even go with their super charger, but for next 3-5 years I'll enjoy the Power Pack 2 as it's quite good with a stout mid-range which is excellent for road course. Power Pack 3 really shines in roll racing and high speed large tracks where it can stretch it legs.

    Shorter tracks aka a european style road course is better taken advantage of by PP2 as you spend more time in the mid-range.
     
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    MustangGuy

    MustangGuy Well-Known Member

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    Good feedback. Did you do a base dyno and one after install? Why did you go with custom tune over the PP3 Ford tune?
     
  5. v8hgt

    v8hgt Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t dyno mine. I don’t really care about what power it makes as long as it drives well. Mine is a road car only by the way.
    I’m in the UK and up until recently ford didn’t offer the pp3 option here, hence I had to go with the custom tune option.
     
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  6. JohnD

    JohnD Legend in his own mind

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    The problem I have with the PP3 is you have to really wind the engine out to get the maximum benefit from it. Read Billy Johnson's posts on it, unless you're wanting to turn at least 7500 rpm regularly it's not a great deal. I have no interest in turning those kind of revs so I'm going PP2, I'd like my engine to last for a few years of track days, not just a season.
     
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  7. stevnoof1

    stevnoof1 Well-Known Member

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    Drivability is perfect in my opinion. With a manual car it seems to either be on the throttle or in decel which I really liked about it. No dyno but the car picked up .4 seconds in the 1/4 mile and a few mph. But I would say the drivability was even better than stock and much better than any protunes ive used.
     
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    MustangGuy

    MustangGuy Well-Known Member

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    I see a couple of cars here that are running headers. I wonder if that makes up for the loss in low end torque I hear about.
    I hear you v8hgt about drivability but am curious to see if custom tunes are getting the same or more than the Ford advertised 37HP for the PP3.
     
  9. TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    #9 TheLion, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    They might be making a couple HP more but your giving up 91 octane to do that. So unless it's a 93 only tune they are not going to make any more power and the reliability of the Ford Performance offerings are better than any others out there bar none. If something should happen, then it can be covered under warranty.

    It's a fully warrantied modification if you have it done at a dealership or by any ASE certified technician and the amount of testing done is quite extensive compared to "shop tunes". It's also emissions legal. Hard to beat as it's more or less a factory hot tune. The GT350 comes from the factory already tuned for 91 or higher only, so this is what Ford could have done for the regular GT.


    In my opinion the standard Performance Package should have included the Power Pack 2 straight from the factory. A nice in between the base touring setup of a regular GT and a true but expensive track variant, the GT350.


    Sure you can make more power on E85 and a custom tune than the FP offerings, but that's an apples to oranges as your changing fuel types to get there. On 93 pump gas the after market tunes aren't making much more and most of them can't utilize the GT350 TB without drive ability issues. Remember the stated 456 hp output is on 91. It does have octane learn and there's a few more ponies to be had from 93. Rule of thumb is 2 octane is worth about 2% peak power.



    LMR got 421 WHP peak with their PP GT 6M and a Ford Performance cat back exhaust (the GT350 version with the quad tips and valence) on the Power Pack 2 with 93 pump gas, no other engine mods. That's 472 hp at the crank assuming a 12% drive train loss. Their car put down 395 whp with just the FP cat back exhaust. A bone stock PP GT 6M should put down 390 with 12% drive train loss on 93 in 5th pulls. 4th gear pulls will give you lower numbers, about 2~3% lower. Cat backs typically only net about 5~7 whp average and LMR's results are perfectly in line. I've seen a few others on 91 and 93 octane with stock exhaust in the 410 to 415 range for the Power Pack 2's.



    LMR put down 431 whp peak on their Power Pack 3, same car, 93 and also with the FP exhaust. I am 99% confident FP's stated gains of 21 hp and 24 ft-lbs are based on 91. There's not a huge jump going to 93, but a few hp and ft-lbs left on the table that the octane learn function can squeeze out.


    Drive ability of the Power Packs is even superior to the factory tune and on any street car that's just as important as power and reliability. I'm not suggesting there's no place for after market stuff, there is, but I don't see it on a street car, especially if you have get emissions checks once every 2 years like I do and your still well within the factory warranty.


    I can say from my own experience that Power Pack 2 is going to give you more usable power unless your running the car on high speed tracks with large sweeping turns. Otherwise on more Euro style tight road courses with shorter straights where average speeds are lower, Power Pack 2 is going to offer you more power. Look at MotoIQ's torque charts. It's not until you pass 6500 RPM that Power Pack 3 starts to actually put down more torque.



    Everywhere under 6500 it's putting down less. So it all depends on what RPM range you spend most of your time in. For drag racing Power Pack 3 won't offer you more than Power Pack 2 because your not going to cross the finish line at 120 mph+. Your not using it's full power in 4th gear by the time you cross the finish line unlike Power Pack 2. Braski ran a 11.86 on 93 pump gas with just a Power Pack 2, Cat back exhaust and IRS re-work (all the normal stuff) on a full set of big / littles. So it has a huge potential. Fastest bone stock GT 6M ran a 12.56. I'd imagine auto's have another .1 to .2 seconds over a manual with same IRS / tire combo and track conditions that Braski ran his PP GT 6M under.


    Power Pack 3 absolutely has it's own. Roll racing and high speed track is where it will dominate. But for everything else Power Pack 2 will provide better average power.
     
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  10. v8hgt

    v8hgt Well-Known Member

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    I’m reliably informed that custom tuners are getting more than ford if you want them to. I specifically requested that mine focus on drivability and durability over max power. Hence my tune is closer to the pp3 tune. It could give more timing or a higher red line if I went to Lund and asked for everything they could give me.

    Export spec cars (especially rhd) have less power than USA cars to start with due to emissions regulations requiring a different stock tune. Hence on my car I will have gained well over 37hp from stock as I went from stock 414hp export tune to pp3 hardware and custom tune. I suspect I have gained at least another 20hp on top of the 37hp gain.
     
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  11. Hawk296

    Hawk296 Well-Known Member

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    I have a 2016 base GT with PP. Only power mods are power pack3.

    I run 93 octane as thats whats readily available here. I have not dynoed it but it is everything I had hoped it would be. I drive my car on the street enthusiastically on nice days and weekend track days at local road courses.

    Driveability is excellent. It feels completely stock until about 4500 RPM. After that, it just keeps pulling all the way to 7500 RPM. It really widens the power band up high. Driving around town I honestly dont feel like it lost anything down low, but it didnt gain anything either. Up high its amazing.

    If you are driving the car right, the only time you deal with low RPM is from a start in first. After that, with the gear ratio spacing and the 3.73s combined with the higher redline, you are always in power. It’s really well suited to the track. Sure you don’t notice a difference if you are chugging along at 3,000 RPM stoplight to stoplight, but if you wind it out and let it breathe, it is rewarding.

    High ambient temps do seem to effect it. At stoplights with mid 90s outside air temp, the IAT has been in the 120-140F range, takes some good airflow through the grill to cool them down and it feels noticeably more sluggish until then so i would not be surprised if its pulling some timing although I have not datalogged it.
     
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    MustangGuy

    MustangGuy Well-Known Member

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    Good feedback. I wonder if having 3.31 gears make getting the PP3 not worthwhile as it loses torque at the lower RPM's which is what is the range mostly driven.
     
  13. RoaringBauser15

    RoaringBauser15 New Member

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    The PP3 serves my purpose I'm not a professional racer and nearly 40 soooooo. I recall the 04 Mach1 having about 350 crank and that was fast at the time. If your drag racing on the street for bragging rights or pride maybe the PP2 is your best option. I've got just enough horsepower to be dangerous and not enough to be reckless.
     
  14. morgande

    morgande Well-Known Member

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    You really can’t call it a PP3 if your running a custom tune. Ford Performance spent a lot...A LOT...of time on the calibration of the Power Packs. They are designed to mimic the drivability and livability of the stock calibration.

    American Muscle did a recent tour of the Ford Performance shop and their new turn-key racer. The engineer who does the calibration on their tunes use to do OEM calibration on the Mustang. So because he knows the stock calibration so well (he wrote the damn thing), he knows how to write a tune that best mimics that stock calibration.

    I’m not saying that a 3rd party tune won’t get you good drivability or livability. Perhaps even on par with what you get with a PP3. However, I can assume that most 3rd party tunes dont put as much emphasis on drivability or livability as the Ford Performance ones do.

    @TheLion post are SPOT on. Go out and read the article from MotoIQ. It’s a very good read on the subject...with input and analysis from Palm Beach Dyno who is a well known 3rd party tunner.

    I’ve attached a dyno comparison of all 3 tunes from MotoIQ. As was stated earlier...that PP3 really comes into its own at a higher RPM and that high RPM power comes as a sacrifice on the mid-range torque. 6F3D6841-81E8-4BD2-9FE4-4C1E7A0B5835.jpeg
     
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    MustangGuy

    MustangGuy Well-Known Member

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    I just read that article. I agree with your statement about not being able to call it a PP3. I'm hearing from some 3rd party tuners that the Ford PP3 tune is not a conservative tune and is causing problems with pinging. I have heard no reports of that anywhere. Is this their way of steering you to their tune or prepping you for when there tune does not produce the same HP numbers. That's why I started this thread to get some real feedback from PP3 owners. I'd love to see more dyno reports including folks with the GT350 IM setup with a 3rd party tune.
     
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