port injection/direct injection

[tws123]

how will port injection/direct injection affect modding on 2018 mustang? it seems to have made it harder to get enough fuel on the chevy motors.

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[diablomatt]

it should help out a great deal. as far as power output direct injection is far superior. but it has always had 2 problems. build up on the intake valves and the lack of aftermarket pumps and injectors. this will solve both those problems as you now have the second set or port injectors that you can swap out for larger ones just like you do current platforms.

so you will more than likely leave the DI system alone and mod the port side as needed

 

[Scp-steve]

The direct injected heads on BMW and volvos have major issues with
Build up on the intake side
It is just plain not working

I heard ford is using a hybrid technology where it uses two injectors. One to clean the intake valve and then the main direct injection injector

 

[Grimace427]

it should help out a great deal. as far as power output direct injection is far superior. but it has always had 2 problems. build up on the intake valves and the lack of aftermarket pumps and injectors. this will solve both those problems as you now have the second set or port injectors that you can swap out for larger ones just like you do current platforms.

so you will more than likely leave the DI system alone and mod the port side as needed

I agree, the dual fuel system should make it easier to ensure a proper supply of fuel for any given setup especially with boost. The question is if the car comes with a sufficient fuel pump setup to supply both systems.

 

[diablomatt]

The direct injected heads on BMW and volvos have major issues with
Build up on the intake side
It is just plain not working

I heard ford is using a hybrid technology where it uses two injectors. One to clean the intake valve and then the main direct injection injector

yes that is what we are talking about here. the new fords have both port injection and DI. so the gunked up intake valve is a none issue now.

I agree, the dual fuel system should make it easier to ensure a proper supply of fuel for any given setup especially with boost. The question is if the car comes with a sufficient fuel pump setup to supply both systems.

shouldn't matter as your DI system uses a "lift pump" to feed the injection pump. that lift pump is a standard intake setup. so to make big power you should be able to use a hat with 2/3 pumps as long as you make previsions to also have it feed the high pressure pump

 

[PatrickGT]

The direct injected heads on BMW and volvos have major issues with
Build up on the intake side
It is just plain not working

I heard ford is using a hybrid technology where it uses two injectors. One to clean the intake valve and then the main direct injection injector

When you "directly" inject the fuel, it bypasses the valves. The additives in the fuel miss the intake valves and they cannot clean what they do not touch.

BMW and VW consider this a maintenance issue of the customer's, you need to walnut blast the valves every 60K. You can also clean them yourself.

Adding port injection such as what Toyota uses (D4S) and what VAG now uses (they were previously on EA888 gen2 and before using direct only) clears up this issue by allowing the detergents and additives to pass over the intake valves to clean them up. This does have a small impact on fuel economy, but not as much as what you are getting back from having DI in the first place.

DI is awesome for turbo cars, btw... super high compression isn't an issue when you can tune the fuel delivery so precisely. The piezoelectric injectors BMW uses are particularly good at targeting and metering fuel delivery.

As far as the question regarding more fueling, well... yeah that's an issue and it is an issue for pretty much all DI Platforms. The good news is that the injectors generally seem to be fine, the HPFP is either a total POS (BMW) or it can't keep up (VW) and someone will make a better one or just an in-tank booster (such as APR and Unitronic for VW) to resolve the issue to a point... and at that point you're going to need to take responsibility for more than doubling the HP on your car because in VW world we are talking about 200hp 4cyl cars from the factory running out of fuel at 550HP.... kind of an extreme use case that anyone modifying their vehicle to that level should be prepared for.

 

[Scp-steve]

Yea
I've seen some of the BMW heads at around 30-50k miles

Simply horrible

 

[PatrickGT]

The lightly driven automatic cars, aka the ones that don't see redline often if ever, are the worst because that's about all that will slow this down.

If you drive a BMW like an enthusiast, you're looking at 60-80K for that "service".

 

[wildcatgoal]

I won't touch a car with DI unless it has what Ford has done, which is including port injectors which will clean the valves. It's absolute HORSESHIT that manufacturers make people pay for walnut blasting and crap like that. They should have seen it in testing.

 

[PatrickGT]

OH they saw it in testing, that's why it is maintenance instead of a repair.

Pissed me right tf off on my 07 335i.

 

[jlstro3]

When you "directly" inject the fuel, it bypasses the valves. The additives in the fuel miss the intake valves and they cannot clean what they do not touch.

BMW and VW consider this a maintenance issue of the customer's, you need to walnut blast the valves every 60K. You can also clean them yourself.

Adding port injection such as what Toyota uses (D4S) and what VAG now uses (they were previously on EA888 gen2 and before using direct only) clears up this issue by allowing the detergents and additives to pass over the intake valves to clean them up. This does have a small impact on fuel economy, but not as much as what you are getting back from having DI in the first place.

DI is awesome for turbo cars, btw... super high compression isn't an issue when you can tune the fuel delivery so precisely. The piezoelectric injectors BMW uses are particularly good at targeting and metering fuel delivery.

As far as the question regarding more fueling, well... yeah that's an issue and it is an issue for pretty much all DI Platforms. The good news is that the injectors generally seem to be fine, the HPFP is either a total POS (BMW) or it can't keep up (VW) and someone will make a better one or just an in-tank booster (such as APR and Unitronic for VW) to resolve the issue to a point... and at that point you're going to need to take responsibility for more than doubling the HP on your car because in VW world we are talking about 200hp 4cyl cars from the factory running out of fuel at 550HP.... kind of an extreme use case that anyone modifying their vehicle to that level should be prepared for.

Back in 2011 or so I bought a used 335I. Right as I signed the papers the dealership signed me up for a service appointment and swapped out the HPFP and injectors for free as both were known issues. I knew nothing about it going into it, they just figured they'd save the potential hassle for both of us I guess. It's definitely not an ironed out thing yet.

 

[MyLilPony]

Yea
I've seen some of the BMW heads at around 30-50k miles

Simply horrible

you should have seen the valves on my daughters turbo mini! holy shit it was bad!!! Mini actually has a bookable service for this issue ~$1000 for maintenance because they know it is a shit set up... terrible...

 

[wildcatgoal]

OH they saw it in testing, that's why it is maintenance instead of a repair.

Pissed me right tf off on my 07 335i.

Ex GF had one of those. It needed it and injectors, too. She knows people so she got it done at a shop for a pretty cheap price. Then ended up dating the guy. Hence we're not dating anymore. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[wireeater]

My 15' WRX (FA20DIT) was DI only. That just gave me an excuse to install water/meth injection

I did have the IM blasted at 40k since I had the IM off for the water/meth direct port injection install, they weren't that bad honestly but I also don't baby my cars so that probably helps with carbon burnoff. Now my IS250 is another issue in it's own. Lexus/Toyota had a real bad time dealing with the DI only V6 in the 2006-2013 models on the 250 models.

Having port injection will definitely help with fueling if the limits of the HPFP runs out.

 

[Bullitt0819]

Resurrecting this thread as I just bought a '19 Bullitt. The consensus seems to be that the PIs are tuned such that they'll keep the intake valves clean. Is using (mostly) Top Tier gas sufficient, or should I throw some Techron or similar in the tank every few thousand miles?

TIA for any input.

Bob

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