POLL: Guess MY18 Power Level!

[Seceda91]

So you're trying to say that there will only be a 20 horsepower jump with dual injection, a 12:1 compression ratio (DI and 12:1 are good for more than 40hp on other cars), larger bore, better flowing heads/intake manifold? I'm trying to understand your reasoning since we already know the modifications to the engine. Just because it's a refresh doesn't mean they won't exceed 20 horsepower.

Well I hope i'm wrong and you're right. A 50 HP jump ain't no joke. Could be possible but seeing the pics of the 4-55 and knowing Ford, I just think they will make it 455.

Who knows what Ford will do at this point. I just know a 475 HP/425 Trq with the A10 could possibly be in the 11's in good air. Damn that would be nice

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[Cardude99]

As I've seen smartly stated a few times in this forum, they are not going to give you the max potential of these upgrades at first, as if the Coyote carries over to the S650 they will have to bump it again (consider the 2011 Coyote power to where we are today, Ford could have given us the S550 coyote engine in an S197 GT if they wanted too... see Boss 302). Would bet anything the power rating falls somewhere in the 455-465 range

Keep in mind when it got the bump to 420 in 2013 it was already beating the camaro at the strip so it didn't need the bump but it got it cause of the change in the engine for that year.

This time they need to catch up/ exceed the ss and the scat pack. With all of the upgrades I would be shocked if the hp is below 475. They can only improve the chassis so much that they will need more power and torque to make up for how the how superior the alpha chasis is.

 

[Gigantor]

 

[MrWolf]

Well I hope i'm wrong and you're right. A 50 HP jump ain't no joke. Could be possible but seeing the pics of the 4-55 and knowing Ford, I just think they will make it 455.

Who knows what Ford will do at this point. I just know a 475 HP/425 Trq with the A10 could possibly be in the 11's in good air. Damn that would be nice

Yea, but that same picture had 470 & 455... happy days!

 

[Hack]

As I've seen smartly stated a few times in this forum, they are not going to give you the max potential of these upgrades at first, as if the Coyote carries over to the S650 they will have to bump it again (consider the 2011 Coyote power to where we are today, Ford could have given us the S550 coyote engine in an S197 GT if they wanted too... see Boss 302). Would bet anything the power rating falls somewhere in the 455-465 range

It depends on whether they think essentially no power gain is needed to continue to get sales. For me if I were a GT owner, I would see no reason in 20-30 HP to upgrade. Also, will the Camaro get more power soon?

I could see Ford sitting back and doing a negligible power gain as you are predicting, but I really hope they push it and go farther. I believe that most people buying a GT want the power.

The 2020+ performance gains may come more from weight loss initially rather than the car needing another power upgrade. Who knows, there may be significant engine changes if the car is getting smaller?

 

[1320']

That's funny because Chevy did that in 2002. I promise the LS1 did not have 320 hp.... lol.

It's because the current, much tougher and required testing didn't get put into place until 2005.

General Motors has become the first manufacturer to certify an engine's power and torque ratings using a newly adopted SAE standard (J2723), James Queen, GM Vice President, Global Engineering, announced during his keynote address at the SAE World Congress and Exhibition in April 2005. The world's largest automaker plans to certify all of its engines to the voluntary standard, and is encouraging its competitors to do the same. The LS7 engine for the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 was certified under the new standard this month.

Up until 2005 SAE testing was fairly loose and wasn't complied with. That also explains the SRT4.

 

[1320']

Keep in mind when it got the bump to 420 in 2013 it was already beating the camaro at the strip so it didn't need the bump but it got it cause of the change in the engine for that year.

This time they need to catch up/ exceed the ss and the scat pack. With all of the upgrades I would be shocked if the hp is below 475. They can only improve the chassis so much that they will need more power and torque to make up for how the how superior the alpha chasis is.

They don't need to exceed the Camaro or Scat Pack in raw power figures at all. They need to either match or outperform the Camaro/SP Challengers while maintaining a price advantage and availability perspective.

 

[Petroleum Jesus]

As I've seen smartly stated a few times in this forum, they are not going to give you the max potential of these upgrades at first, as if the Coyote carries over to the S650 they will have to bump it again (consider the 2011 Coyote power to where we are today, Ford could have given us the S550 coyote engine in an S197 GT if they wanted too... see Boss 302). Would bet anything the power rating falls somewhere in the 455-465 range

So let's just say this "smart" logic is correct and Ford will in fact leave most of the potential gains on the table for the S650. In my opinion, your numbers still don't make sense. Here is my argument:

Companies don't develop and implement tech before settling on performance parameters, they assess the performance parameters required to meet the market need and settle on tech which fulfills those parameters in the most cost-effective manner.

In the corporate world, only three thing matter. Is there a demand? Can a profit be made? What is the least risky and most cost-effective way to meet this demand? What is the return on the investment?

Let's assume that a 20hp bump was deemed necessary by the big wigs and answer these questions.

So, is there a demand for more horsepower? Yes.

Can a profit be made? Yes.

What is the least risky and most cost effective way to make 5% more horsepower?

Well let's look at the available options:

1. Implement existing NA/PI tech. Cost: $50-$400. Effect: +3-9% Peak Power.

2. Develop and implement new NA/PI tech. Cost: $300- $600. Effect +5-12% Peak Power.

3. Develop and implement new NA/DI tech. Cost: $500- $1000 + higher maintenance costs. Effect: +8-16% Peake Power.

5. Combination of 2 & 3. Cost: $800-$2500. Effect: +12-20% Peak Power + higher maintenance costs.

6. Develop and implement new FI/DI tech. Cost: $3k- $8k + Substantially higher maintenance costs. Effect: +50-75% Peak Power.

Granted, these are only estimates for illustrative purposes, but I can guarantee you that they are within realistic margins.

So, if the idea here is to use the most cost effective tech to produce 5% more peak power to make the best return on our investment, option 1 is a no brainer.

Conversely, if we know Ford has already chosen to develop and implement option 5, then we should expect between 485hp-520hp & 425-455lbft.


So by your logic, 485hp & 425lbft is a reasonable expectation.

 

[1320']

I think anything from 465-485 HP is reasonable. 415-425 TQ as well.

 

[Seceda91]

I'm REALLY hoping for 475+ and 430 torque to even things up with the Camaro and beat the SP Challenger/Charger.

Now i'm sure the A10 is a fast shifting tranny but it's not going to be night and day vs Chevy's A8 and Dodge's aggressive gearing A8. Unless the chassis loses ~80-100 lbs I believe 475/430 will match or beat the SS. SS's biggest advantage is chassis and torque.

Although the SP Challenger is heavy, I'm very impress with their A8 tranny. Very aggressive gearing and I can see them running along with the SS.

Manual per manual will be essentially the same.

But will Ford need to match or beat their main competitors when sales are showing great numbers? In the end, they are a business and their goal is to make as much profit as possible vs trying to outperform their competitors.

Ford can easily go 475/440 if they wanted too.. But will they feel that they need to? That is the magic question.

 

[5-OH]

455 ford seems to always do a 20hp bump

 

[Hack]

It's because the current, much tougher and required testing didn't get put into place until 2005.



Up until 2005 SAE testing was fairly loose and wasn't complied with. That also explains the SRT4.

I remember seeing a comparison of the GT350R and the Z/28. The Z/28 dynoed very high compared to its rating. It might be evidence that your statements about the accuracy of HP ratings are not 100% correct. Of course there are other possible explanations as well. Why do you think the Z/28 produced such a high number on the dyno?

 

[dkmesa]

I agree that the Camaro isn't that underrated but the wording in the SAE certificate only requires a minimum amount of power not a maximum. In other words, it is still possible for manufacturers to underrate their engines. They just can't overrate them. BMW and Mercedes still commonly underrate their engines.

+1. Saying manufacturers cannot underrate their motors is just silly. My wife's BMW is rated at 320 crank hp and stock ones routinely dyno between 315-325 rwhp. If 1320' is correct, my wife's ZF 8 speed must be magic and her car has zero drivetrain loss. :headbonk:

 

[Kpod]

In the corporate world, only three thing matter. 1)Is there a demand? 2)Can a profit be made? 3)What is the least risky and most cost-effective way to meet this demand? 4)What is the return on the investment?

So which one doesn't really matter? It's probably more like only one thing matters, what's the ROI?

They already have to go DI/PI for cafe standards. They already have gt350 high flowing IM/TB/Heads. The production costs for these parts are probably very similar to the production costs of coyote S550 IM/TB/Heads. So why not throw the gt350 IM/TB/Heads on the new DI/PI coyote, spend a little r&d on a solid tune, and kick camaro's arse. S650 can get the 5.2cpc with these upgrades and still get a big bump.

 

[Vinny_GT]

So let's just say this "smart" logic is correct and Ford will in fact leave most of the potential gains on the table for the S650. In my opinion, your numbers still don't make sense. Here is my argument:

Companies don't develop and implement tech before settling on performance parameters, they assess the performance parameters required to meet the market need and settle on tech which fulfills those parameters in the most cost-effective manner.

In the corporate world, only three thing matter. Is there a demand? Can a profit be made? What is the least risky and most cost-effective way to meet this demand? What is the return on the investment?

Let's assume that a 20hp bump was deemed necessary by the big wigs and answer these questions.


So by your logic, 485hp & 425lbft is a reasonable expectation.

Remember though, all of these costs are shared with the F-150 when it comes to the Coyote, it is not a mustang only engine. When looking at Ford's business plan, the new DI is as much about fuel efficiency standards as it is power. A less aggressively tuned engine will use less gas, that matters to the corp execs over there. I believe they would sacrifice 10hp if it meant they could go 1 MPG higher on the window sticker. I could be wrong, but 455-465 puts them right in line or slightly above the camaro, and 20 or so HP less than the 392 (difference easily made up in weight savings). Maybe they blow us all away and give us 485-490 for the 2018 but I think its unlikely.

And historical data will tell us that a faster challenger & camaro both sold less than the 435HP mustang GT to this point. The specific power numbers matter a ton to a number of us on the forums, but we are a small percentage of the entire population of mustang buyers.

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