paddles vs stick

[S3XPanther]

There is nothing instantaneous about automatic transmissions with paddles. There will be a delay as the valve body interprets your shift request and makes its decision. You have very little control over the gear changes and will be at the mercy of the software. I am hoping they do a good job on the software regardless and will agree the auto will likely be quicker in the 1/4 mile and certainly more consistent. Boring, but consistent.





Haha that is pretty good! I drive primarily in heavy traffic and my manual transmission makes me feel more in control even when inching along. The 3.73s make for nice crawler gears.

3.91s are even better ;D

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[wjones14]

I never judge anyone for buying an automatic, but it'll always be manual for me. I've had 3 Mustang GTs, 3 Camaro Z28s, an Olds 4-4-2 W-30, a 1965 Corvette 396, a Triumph Spitfire, a Toyota Celica GT, and a Fiat 850 Spyder. All manuals. Even my very first car, an Opel Kadett Ralleye coupe was a 4-speed stick.

My daughter wanted a Mini Cooper as her first car, and I totally supported that decision, but only if she got a manual. She did, and never regretted it. 5 years later she's ready to start a family and she bought a big Buick Enclave automatic, but she'll always know how to drive a manual in a pinch, a skill that her husband doesn't have. ;)

And best of all for me, I bought the Mini from her, and now have a fun (manual) car to drive in the winter while my Mustang stays clean and safe in the garage!

 

[S3XPanther]

I never judge anyone for buying an automatic, but it'll always be manual for me. I've had 3 Mustang GTs, 3 Camaro Z28s, an Olds 4-4-2 W-30, a 1965 Corvette 396, a Triumph Spitfire, a Toyota Celica GT, and a Fiat 850 Spyder. All manuals. Even my very first car, an Opel Kadett Ralleye coupe was a 4-speed stick.

My daughter wanted a Mini Cooper as her first car, and I totally supported that decision, but only if she got a manual. She did, and never regretted it. 5 years later she's ready to start a family and she bought a big Buick Enclave automatic, but she'll always know how to drive a manual in a pinch, a skill that her husband doesn't have. ;)

And best of all for me, I bought the Mini from her, and now have a fun (manual) car to drive in the winter while my Mustang stays clean and safe in the garage!

In regards to your profile pic, I have to say that 1) I greatly envy individuals with original (and hopefully mint) 05' GT's, and 2) I'm thinking about taking a trip up to Watkins Glen this summer, do you feel it's worth the trip?

 

[wjones14]

In regards to your profile pic, I have to say that 1) I greatly envy individuals with original (and hopefully mint) 05' GT's, and 2) I'm thinking about taking a trip up to Watkins Glen this summer, do you feel it's worth the trip?

The trip to Watkins Glen is a no-brainer. It's EPIC! I've gone twice now with this club: http://www.scda1.com/

For $275, you get 2.5 hours of track time on the long 3.4 mile configuration. The NASCAR configuration eliminates "the boot" section and is 2.4 miles. 2.5 hours is a long time on the track. It's 5 30-minute sessions. You need to fill up with fuel after 4 sessions.

I've also been to Lime Rock, Loudon, and New Jersey's Thunderbolt track. In terms of Epic-ness, Lime Rock would be second best in this list, IMO. But none of these tracks compare to the overall greatness of the Glen. It's high-speed and a roller coaster of elevation changes. I was just over 130 mph on the back straight - a 5.0 (or Camaro 1LE like yours) could probably hit 140 there.

Here's a video of me doing a lap there, chasing a Dodge Challenger:

[ame]

As far as my original 2005 GT, yes I do love it still. I just bought my daughter's Mini this past summer and use that as a winter beater now, but before that the Mustang was my daily driver. Despite that, I have been OCD about the car, wax it probably 10 times a year, and avoid parking it where it could be dinged. It never got a single parking lot scratch, and has never been in an accident. The only thing I couldn't avoid are a few tiny paint chips from stones or whatever, and I have scraped the bottom of the front splitter. Other than that, though, it's perfect and fairly rare with the yellow paint and 5-speed (only 1500 V8s in that combination).

I'll be sad to get rid of it, but no doubt will become just as attached to a 2015 GT if that's what I get... ;)

 

[FATTBoss]

Nice video, I hope to be making the trip to the Glen for an HPDE this October.

 

[diskreet]

I can add a bit of clarity around one point that I keep reading. Paddle shifters do not give you complete control over the transmission. They are a mechanism that allows you to request a shift. If the algorithm allows, you'll get the gear you asked for.

Before my Elise, I had an '09 Audi TT with the DSG and it was infuriating, especially with downshifts. It would usually only downshift it the lower gear would keep the engine about 1k rpm under redline. I'm not saying all implementations of paddle shifting automatic, or automated manual, gearboxes are like this. Ferrari and Porsche have figured it out finally. However, I expect a car like a Mustang to be tuned conservatively, so expect denied shifts regularly.

 

[Sig556]

I have one wish and that is just don't make improvements in the MT-82 transmission. Ford if you are going to make a Hi-Performance car backed by a 6 speed manual make sure the transmission is up to the task and be done with it. Ford has had to of lost it's ass in repairing and replacing the MT-82 since 2011. This time around I'm going for the Auto in a Ragtop. I have had stick transmissions all my life but there comes a time you just have to say F*** it lay back and enjoy the ride. But you better believe it will be a 5.0

 

[S3XPanther]

I have one wish and that is just don't make improvements in the MT-82 transmission. Ford if you are going to make a Hi-Performance car backed by a 6 speed manual make sure the transmission is up to the task and be done with it. Ford has had to of lost it's ass in repairing and replacing the MT-82 since 2011. This time around I'm going for the Auto in a Ragtop. I have had stick transmissions all my life but there comes a time you just have to say F*** it lay back and enjoy the ride. But you better believe it will be a 5.0

+1 on the MT-82. That's why I'm opting for the hi-po which will more than likely utilize a TR6060.

 

[FATTBoss]

Paddles vs stick to me depends on execution, and intended use of the car. I drove a Porsche Cayman with a paddle system at VIR a few years ago and did not like it. It seemed to be slow to respond to my inputs even on upshifts. I drove a Ferrari 458 on a tighter more technical course and I was glad for the paddles as it allowed me to focus more on driving the car. Everything happened so fast in that car I needed to keep my hands on the wheel at all times.

Prior to that Ferrari I drove a 360 on the same course and cursed the gated manual every time I needed a gear change because you had to be deliberate and accurate with your shift.

The difference between the Cayman and the Ferrari paddles was that the Cayman system was based on an automatic, and the Ferrari system is a manual with automated clutch. The Ford will be an automatic style system, and to me that style is not a true paddle shift, it's just an auto with buttons. However, since the '15 my wife and I intend to buy is for her, it will be a nice compromise between what I like, and what would be easiest for her to live with on a daily basis.

 

[Norm Peterson]

i do have a hip and knee problem from hockey but it is mostly healed but certain things make it flare up so thats my biggest worry i don't want to pre order stick and not be able to drive it but i want the thrill of a full control gear box its a catch 22

It might depend on the specifics of your past injuries and what may make them flare up. I've had both knees operated on twice, the last involving the ACL, MCL, plus a bone fracture (BMX bicycle racing). That last one happened in 1987 and I've owned nothing but stick shift cars since. Late model OE clutches and even some of the aftermarket clutches are pretty easy to live with. A hundred shifts a day on my commute (before I retired) and a thousand or more on any trip

Well another added bonus is that its faster and can take more abuse than the manual. The manual can launch better, but its going to be hard pressed to beat an auto from a roll. And all it takes to equal the playing field for launches at the track is a high stall tq converter.

You're going to get some contradiction about which "launches better". The automatic is generally less abusive to the rest of the drivetrain in dragstrip-type use and that it's more consistent and may ET a little better. But that's a bonus only if straight line racing is your thing, or if you feel you have to "play to win" every stoplight and roll challenge.

Not everyone is wired the same.

I wish more people realized this

For all of those with a significant other who is unable to drive stick, teach them how. That's what I did and now she loves manual transmissions so much that every car she buys from now on will have a manual.

This ↑↑↑ . It was my wife's unsolicited, active preference to stay with the manual transmission back in 2010 . . . and she'd been driving stick almost exclusively for about 38 years at that point.

I'm still not sure how questions like this come up. Who cares what anyone says to you in person or on forums. Get what you want or what works for you.

I'm not sure either, unless the decision is so close to tipping either way that they need to hear things that may not have crossed their minds.

On a side note, I've actually had a negative question about my manual trans choice once. It was from my brother in my one year old loaded 2010 audi s4. He said 'why'd you get a manual transmission, is this thing a base car or something?' He was serious, clearly not a car guy.

Kind of like insider Harley rider thinking then . . . if you have to ask, you won't understand.

Even though I like manuals better and my wife has no problems with them, this car is going to be a cruiser for me. I will never really drive it to its limits. Plus, these new autos probably shift better than I can. So, it will be an auto for me.

Why does this matter? Part of the point in having a MT is to enjoy the involvement, and you absolutely do not have to be in "race mode" for this to happen.

When you're making good, clean shifts you get to claim most of the credit rather than silently acknowledging that some far-away committee was mainly responsible. And when you screw up as you occasionally will, you have incentive to do better the next time. Kind of like lots of other things in life.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

By that logic somebody who spends 100k on a Porsche 911 with PDK can't really enjoy it because it's not a stick. Pretty sure that wouldn't be the case.

My car is an auto and I have plenty of fun. I'm not knocking manuals here, but is possible to enjoy either version.

There is still less involvement with working a glorified microswitch that sends a polite request to the PCM to please initiate a shift in the requested direction . . . and while you're at it, Jeeves, would you please do the rev-match for me?

You are entitled to your opinion but calling someone who prefers automatics not a true enthusiast is a load of crap.

Does "not a true enthusiast in the traditional sports roadster and road racing sense" work better? No, I do not expect every car enthusiast to fit themselves into that definition, which is why I narrowed it down a bit.

Ford needs to sell cars, so first and foremost, they are going to sell to what the majority of people want. Beyond that, they will sell some niche cars and halo cars as long as it is either profitable in and of itself or helps generate sales.

Someone bemoaned the fact the Porsche and Ferrari are only making automatics. I feel the same way about Ford but in the opposite direction. All their higher performance models are manuals. Why not make at least one option for a high performance automatic?

I think they are leaving a lot of sales on the table by not having an automatic. A lot of people go with Chevy or Dodge simply because they can get automatics in their halo cars. More sales would equal more money which would equal better cars. It would be a win for everyone.

The problem comes somewhat after automatics are offered. You end up with more AT versions sold, partly because that's what dealerships will stock more of and partly because you'll sell to people who can't or won't buy a MT. Eventually the MT version gets squeezed out.

Look to Chevy's SS and Dodge's Charger today vs their originals, or at how GM's G-body platform (1978 - 1987) and Nissan's Maxima (5th to 6th to 7th gen) to watch how those models devolved into automatic-only if you don't believe me.

A good point. I can't afford a new Camaro ZL1 but I could buy a used automatic ZL1. I can't buy a used automatic GT500, it doesn't exist. Chevy is wising up even more, the new Z06 will be offered with an automatic as well as it wasn't in the past. Ford needs to keep this in mind with the upcoming GT350 and maybe a higher power GT500 later on. Aging boomers with arthritic knees and bad backs can't and don't want to do a lot of shifting and they are the ones with the money to buy these new. (Not all boomers of course) I hope they keep manuals in the mix though. Options are nice to have and a good manual needs to be offered on a performance vehicle for those inclined.

To the extent that an AT helps justify keeping a given car "alive", I can agree. But absolutely not to the creeping kudzu-like effect where the AT starts choking the MT fitment out. Individual reasons like traffic, spouse can't, and even partial disability don't matter when the end effect overall is both final and permanent.

Us boomers are starting to retire, which takes a lot of the commuter driving out of the picture (and if we're smart we'll avoid driving in rush hour traffic as much as possible no matter what kind of transmission is in the car we're driving).

It's the younger generations that have progressively had fewer opportunities to even observe manual transmission driving that concern me more. Those for whom a MT car was always being driven by a parent or other adult relative or family acquaintance will be far more aware that a MT represents nothing more than being the way some cars are driven. Not something requiring a whole new skill set to learn, or seen only as something requiring "extra work". I can see this just within my own family and immediate in-laws, from my great-grandparents' generation down to my eldest grandchild (who is starting to drive on her permit).

Yet if sales dwindle year by year (which trends indicate) for manual vehicles or manual only vehicles pretty soon manufacturers will question whether they should be offered at all OR raise prices drastically pricing a good chunk out of the market. You fans of manuals should be rooting for remaining makers of hi-po models to offer automatics as well as manuals because it brings in the makers more money and amortizes the hi-po vehicles. Keep only offering manuals, watch the sales numbers decline, watch transaction prices go up and pretty soon you won't have that hi-po manual variant that you such desire. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face so to speak. There is room for both and with vehicles trending towards automatics, those sales are going to allow manufacturers to continue to offer the manuals. Your "salvation" lies in sales of automatics to your chagrin I'm sure but it isn't 1965 anymore. There is room in the boat for BOTH of us.

About noses and faces, would you feel the same way some years off in the future if the conventional "geared" automatic transmission that I assume you prefer is replaced by the CVT? Think carefully and you might just understand where some of the MT stubbornness is coming from.

Grudging acceptance may be the best you can hope for from the diehard MT enthusiasts among us, because active encouragement of the AT would represent a few critical nails in the MT's coffin.

FWIW, there was a slight uptick in manual transmission fitment fairly recently, and I think it's closer to 8% overall. No, I don't know why.

So it would point to something else then. CAFE numbers possibly. Although I can't see a few thousand more ruining those. I would guess that an automatic GT500 would be saddled with the gas guzzler tax though like the auto ZL1 has. Ford may very well be protecting "purity" whatever that may mean but from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense.

According to one possibly biased view anyway.

That very well may be the case. But when you see Fords chief competitor doing it, it gives Ford an image of incapable of doing it and lets GM gain a leg up so to speak.

Whatever the case Ford knows the reasoning (or lack thereof) and they aren't sharing.

Hard to say whether that image is "better" than that of offering only the traditional corner-carvers' preference and claiming the "high ground" for those purists. You do realize that the current 1LE is MT-only and that the upcoming Z/28 will also be MT-only . . .

Paddle shifters for me, but certainly NOT for just "cruising", with instantaneous gear changes and total control over gear selection (and engine braking into corners) - and at your fingertips, I would bet the auto will be quicker than the manual.

Would anyone think the Formula 1 guys (the worlds most elite motorsport) just cruse around the track with their Paddle Shifts ?

Not the same thing as a paddle shifted automatic. Not at all.

Prior to that Ferrari I drove a 360 on the same course and cursed the gated manual every time I needed a gear change because you had to be deliberate and accurate with your shift.

Functionally, gated shifters just look like a horrible abomination, good for shining up to go with the lawn chairs and the crying dolls, I guess.


Norm

 

[Free Agent]

Norm, you are an avid fan of manuals and that is great. More power to you. But your fellow manual lovers numbers are dwindling day by day, that is just a fact of todays automotive world. I hope manuals will still be offered with autos in perpetuity for guys (and gals) like you. People could bemoan the good old days of hand crank windows, high beam switches on the floorboard, vent windows, the hand-crank starter, manual convertible tops and the list goes on and on. Time marches on and things change. All makers need to be aware of that. It may not be what you like (or I like for that matter). I wouldn't be too keen on a CVT transmission unless it could be set to have shift like qualities, but if that is where the industry is going I will have to deal with it. I am not rooting for or cheering for the downfall of the manual transmission, quite the contrary, I want to see it around for drivers like yourself. But eventually automakers cannot cater to an ever shrinking slice of the performance population and expect people to settle and switch their preferences of transmissions AND make money on those cars.

Good luck, enjoy rowing your gears and I'll see you out there on the roads. Best wishes.

 

[TampaBear67]

I don't forsee a day anytime in the near future that Ford would not offer the Choice of a Manual or Automatic. The fact that the Automatic now at least offers the option to Shift gears via Paddles is just an added bonus. Most people who opt for the Auto will most likely very rarely even use them but it's nice that the option is there if You Choose to play with it. Those who Choose a Manual do so because they Love the Feeling of Control it gives them. I've owned Automatics most of My life, mainly because Ford didn't offer a Manual in most Thunderbirds (I've owned 9 of them from 64's-97's) The One 5 Speed Manual I owned was My 87 T-Bird Turbo Coupe and I have to admit it is still to this day the Most Fun to Drive Car I've Ever Owned, which is why I'm definitely excited to get behind the wheel of an Eco-Boost 2.3 Liter 4 cylinder 2015 Mustang. I'm going to definitely test drive both an Auto with Paddles and a 6 Speed Manual, but I'm leaning more toward an Auto at this point because Traffic is So Horrible here now, unlike the days when I had My Turbo Coupe, but who knows... Driving a Manual, 2.3 Liter Turbo 4 again Might just Spark that Magic Feeling I had driving that 87 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe again and Could just Win Out. :-)

 

[Free Agent]

I don't forsee a day anytime in the near future that Ford would not offer the Choice of a Manual or Automatic. The fact that the Automatic now at least offers the option to Shift gears via Paddles is just an added bonus. Most people who opt for the Auto will most likely very rarely even use them but it's nice that the option is there if You Choose to play with it. Those who Choose a Manual do so because they Love the Feeling of Control it gives them. I've owned Automatics most of My life, mainly because Ford didn't offer a Manual in most Thunderbirds (I've owned 9 of them from 64's-97's) The One 5 Speed Manual I owned was My 87 T-Bird Turbo Coupe and I have to admit it is still to this day the Most Fun to Drive Car I've Ever Owned, which is why I'm definitely excited to get behind the wheel of an Eco-Boost 2.3 Liter 4 cylinder 2015 Mustang. I'm going to definitely test drive both an Auto with Paddles and a 6 Speed Manual, but I'm leaning more toward an Auto at this point because Traffic is So Horrible here now, unlike the days when I had My Turbo Coupe, but who knows... Driving a Manual, 2.3 Liter Turbo 4 again Might just Spark that Magic Feeling I had driving that 87 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe again and Could just Win Out. :-)

Great story and hope you get the manual if you want it. I think it is important that for those who want a manual that they continue to buy them as it says that your type of buyer is still out there. As the pool of manual preferred drivers shrinks as the years go by, it is essential that those that do continue to do so. Vote with your wallet so to speak.

 

[alterbrett]

I had a 2010 Camaro SS with a stick. Absolutely loved it but I'm 90% sure that I will get an automatic GT this time around. Love downshifting and hitting that sweet spot in the rpm range but when you get in traffic it was a pain. Like an earlier post said I agree that you start to focus on gear changes more than enjoying the speed and overall fun the car provides. On a few occasions I almost got in an accident because I missed the gear change or accidentally went into a higher gear that didn't provide the power I needed in that moment. Only happened like two times but I think I will enjoy the car and the 5.0 more if I can just hit the gas and go.

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