Manuals Are Losers

[Arthonon]

What I post is really in line with "I don't like". Even though whatever it is comes off to me as being a rough edge that I can't ignore. I may be bluntly spoken and averse to sugar-coating most of my opinions, but they are not intended in an inflammatory manner.

Unlike the very title to this thread, I might add.


I shouldn't have to explain this any more than people who go on and on about faster shifts should be explaining what amounts to their dissatisfaction with a MT's necessarily slower shifting. Interpretation works both ways . . .


Norm

OK, let's explore that.

Someone posted (emphasis added by me):

Having good manual 'shifting' skills does not equate to good 'driving' skills. Not saying people don't have both, but they're not the same thing. I prefer faster curvy road driving so, for me, automatic much better for speedier corners and better control.

To which you responded:

Better control when somebody other than you is telling the transmission when to shift? I don't believe it, or the speedier corners part where you could be subjected to an unexpected up- or down-shift.


Norm

That doesn't sound like an "I don't like" post to me, it sounds like you're telling someone else that they are wrong about their feeling regarding their performance driving in their car, and even providing a functional issue with the transmission as to why they are wrong. If you meant to say that you personally would not be able to get better performance that way, I am not sure how it could have been interpreted that way. That's why I posted the response that I did.

Edit: One thing I should clarify is that when I reference an auto on these forums, I am referring the the only auto available for purchase on the current Mustang, which is the A10. I am fully aware that not every auto works the same, just like every manual can work differently, and some may not perform as well.

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[K4fxd]

If you have run an auto on a road course in auto mode it really sucks. In some corners it will up shift mid corner and do other surprising stuff. Not fun if you are fast.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

I've never driven an automatic on a road course. Or for that matter anything on a road course in the last 15 years. But the 10 speed in the mach 1 seams to hold up real well in this review.

The Mustang Mach1 and Camaro SS 1Le - YouTube

 

[Norm Peterson]

OK, let's explore that.

That doesn't sound like an "I don't like" post to me, it sounds like you're telling someone else that they are wrong about their feeling regarding their performance driving in their car, and even providing a functional issue with the transmission as to why they are wrong. If you meant to say that you personally would not be able to get better performance that way, I am not sure how it could have been interpreted that way. That's why I posted the response that I did.

Have you ever been taken by surprise by an automatic transmission throwing a shift at you in the middle of a corner that you didn't ask for?

Even in street driving, I find that to be annoying, but I guess you'd need to be tuned in to cornering behavior strongly enough to particularly notice it that way. As far as this topic is concerned I can only define 'control' as being solely what the driver is doing. Anything else is at best sharing control, even if it's way off in the background and largely unnoticeable.

For me, chasing better performance through automated assistance (in this and in other topics) is irrelevant.


Norm

 

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[Sivi70980]

If I'm not driving it, I don't care what transmission it has. Co worker got a new Supra with an auto transmission and it's pretty dang quick.

 

[Silver Bullitt]

My point is Rev Match automates the process, so does No Lift Shift, if manual driving in its purest form is what owning a manual car is all about then how are these automated features acceptable, they actually detract from the "manual driving" experience.

How can manual drivers accept the above automated interventions and then discredit the most technically advanced transmission available in the Mustang today, being the 10 speed Automatic?

That’s just it. Some of us manual guys don’t accept these new features. I don’t have rev match on my ‘18 and would never use it if I did. It annoyed the hell out of me when I test drove an ‘18 1LE. And, anyone trying to no lift shift isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed. I tried it once for shits and giggles, and my natural instincts wouldn’t let me do it. Of course then they’ll complain their weak shift forks broke or something.

I enjoy being able to approach a 270 exit off the highway. 80 to 45 is a little brake, quick blip and drop from 6th/5th to 3rd, basically one seamless coordinated motion. And, if not, I’ll have a chance to improve upon it by repetition. I’ve come to drive that way when the opportunity gives me the chance. It’s just like anything; practice, practice, practice. And, when you do nail it, personally, it gives me a sense of satisfaction. That’s the “manual driving” experience, at least for me.

 

[Arthonon]

Have you ever been taken by surprise by an automatic transmission throwing a shift at you in the middle of a corner that you didn't ask for?

Have I ever? Yes. Have I ever had that happen with the A10? Not that I recall. I have either noticed how well it downshifted when entering the corner and how it held the gear the way I thought it should, or I had it in manual mode, where it wouldn't do that.

Even in street driving, I find that to be annoying, but I guess you'd need to be tuned in to cornering behavior strongly enough to particularly notice it that way. As far as this topic is concerned I can only define 'control' as being solely what the driver is doing. Anything else is at best sharing control, even if it's way off in the background and largely unnoticeable.

Well, there are pro drivers that don't seem to have an issue with it, and have even praised it (whether it's the A10 in the Mustang or DCTs that they leave in auto on other cars). The implication of what you're saying is that they're not tuned in to cornering behavior strongly enough.

For me, chasing better performance through automated assistance (in this and in other topics) is irrelevant.


Norm

And that I completely understand. My posts are not about preferences, it's about accurately representing what the transmissions can do or how they work. To say that they'll do something annoying when they don't, and quite frankly, when you don't even know if a given transmission will do what you describe, is what I am addressing.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Have I ever? Yes. Have I ever had that happen with the A10? Not that I recall. I have either noticed how well it downshifted when entering the corner and how it held the gear the way I thought it should, or I had it in manual mode, where it wouldn't do that.

Most people never notice. To me, any unexpected shift is unwanted. Even if it's better timed than the shift I make for myself according to any external agenda - ultimate performance included.

Well, there are pro drivers that don't seem to have an issue with it, and have even praised it (whether it's the A10 in the Mustang or DCTs that they leave in auto on other cars). The implication of what you're saying is that they're not tuned in to cornering behavior strongly enough.

If you're a pro driver - which implies running or having run in some upper level of competitive motorsports - you'd have forced yourself to get past any objections you might have had to the transmission type, given that that could be the difference in your finishing position. I've even said publicly that I'd suck it up and do that, too, if I was near the pointy end of a W2W or Time Trial series.

And that I completely understand. My posts are not about preferences, it's about accurately representing what the transmissions can do or how they work. To say that they'll do something annoying when they don't, and quite frankly, when you don't even know if a given transmission will do what you describe, is what I am addressing.

Annoying is necessarily a personal and subjective thing where there's no such thing as objective accuracy. There is no guarantee that what I find annoying is anything you'd even notice. And on the other side of the coin, you can't extend your definitions of what might be just barely unnoticeable to you as being a lower-limit boundary on what might bother me or anybody else.

I know enough about how things like torque converters and hydraulically-applied clutches work to more or less understand their basic operational characteristics on a time-history basis. Not just by what they might feel like, which is the only thing most other people even begin to consider (it's the engineer in me, and I can relate theory to actual practice). I've even looked into these 10R80/10L90 transmissions in some detail, just to understand them better.


Norm

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