Limp Mode on the Track

[1320']

I don't understand why Ford would knowingly release "The most track capable Mustang" with an amazing track tuned engine mated the a transmission in base model that can't handle 20 mins on a track.


Page 25 of GT350 Owner's Manual

Because not every tracks their cars, they just want a high performance street coupe that won't ever see a race track.

You're not going to experience the temps and stresses of a race track going up the Pacific Coast Highway, or running around the Angeles mountains, or Tail of the Dragon.

Ford knew about the temp issues on the base and tech pack cars and fully disclosed with the above section. When equipped with the Track Pack or the R Pack..it IS the most track capable Mustang ever, and it's still a GT350.

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[TRACK CRAZY GT350]

I don't understand why Ford would knowingly release "The most track capable Mustang" with an amazing track tuned engine mated the a transmission in base model that can't handle 20 mins on a track.


Page 25 of GT350 Owner's Manual

OK, Ford is saying add transmission and differential coolers. This says to me that they know how to do this and have the parts. Lets get a reply from Ford Performance.

 

[1320']

OK, Ford is saying add transmission and differential coolers. This says to me that they know how to do this and have the parts. Lets get a reply from Ford Performance.

Note they don't say:

"We recommend you add Ford Racing Transmission Cooler kit # 1234567 and Differential Cooling Kit # ABC1234"

They just say Transmission and Diff coolers. They're protecting themselves that should you go out and get differential and transmission coolers, grenade your driveline and then come back to your dealer and say.."but the manual said so!"

Ford is *right* to be very cautious and careful with this car and extremely touchy about warranty concerns. People tend to try to blame the companies for their choices and mistakes...as THIS WHOLE COOLER ISSUE IS PROVING IN SPADES.

 

[zombiekiller]

to get back to the tech part of this. I've been looking through the parts system and looking at the detail pictures of the transmissions.

From the parts system, even though it clearly states that " trasmissions serviced as whole part only", there are some exploded diagrams of the basic casing, bellhousing, etc.

The part numbers for the bellhousing and cases on both transmissions appear to be the same. The one thing that i can't see from the diagrams is whether there is a part number for screw in plugs to cork the cooler scavenge and return ports.

Has anyone found pictures of the passenger side of the transmission? I'm specifically looking for a picture of each trans. one with coolers, one without.

It's also not clear whether there are internal tubing/plumbing parts that lead to the integrated pump beyond an output tube from the internal pump to the output casting on the trans.

I'd also love to see the inlet/pickup side of the integrated pump, without pulling the transmission out of my car.

The good news is that the differential pump is fairly easy to engineer. The trans cooler is what is difficult. I also cannot find the parts diagram for the differential cooler on Ford's public site.

I think that manual switching requirements can be alleviated with thermal switches, as long as we understand the temperature thresholds a little bit better ( at least the spec that ford set for the factory design).

If thermal switches are not your bag, there are continuous duty rated electric pumps readily available that would negate the switch requirement altogether. they'd just need to be connected to accessory power.


Does anyone have a contact or connection at ford that i could ask some of my questions? Anyone have access to the pictures that I'm looking for, or the ability to point me toward the information that I need?

So far, I'm seeing that the differential cooler needs 1.5-2gpm of movement and the trans needs 3gpm.

 

[montreal ponies]

Well I spoke to Mike this morning. I expressed our concerns and emailed him a link to all the threads I feel Ford/Ford Performance needs to see. He said he will get this to the right people.

That's a start in the right direction. WE thank you for that and looking forward to some feedback from Mike.

 

[Caballus]

Well I spoke to Mike this morning. I expressed our concerns and emailed him a link to all the threads I feel Ford/Ford Performance needs to see. He said he will get this to the right people.

Thanks much for getting the ball rolling.

Does a week sound like a reasonable amount of time for an acceptable response, after which it goes to magazines?

 

[autobahnGT350]

to get back to the tech part of this. I've been looking through the parts system and looking at the detail pictures of the transmissions.

Has anyone found pictures of the passenger side of the transmission? I'm specifically looking for a picture of each trans. one with coolers, one without.

It's also not clear whether there are internal tubing/plumbing parts that lead to the integrated pump beyond an output tube from the internal pump to the output casting on the trans.

I'd also love to see the inlet/pickup side of the integrated pump, without pulling the transmission out of my car.

The good news is that the differential pump is fairly easy to engineer. The trans cooler is what is difficult. I also cannot find the parts diagram for the differential cooler on Ford's public site.

I think that manual switching requirements can be alleviated with thermal switches, as long as we understand the temperature thresholds a little bit better ( at least the spec that ford set for the factory design).

If thermal switches are not your bag, there are continuous duty rated electric pumps readily available that would negate the switch requirement altogether. they'd just need to be connected to accessory power.


Does anyone have a contact or connection at ford that i could ask some of my questions? Anyone have access to the pictures that I'm looking for, or the ability to point me toward the information that I need?

So far, I'm seeing that the differential cooler needs 1.5-2gpm of movement and the trans needs 3gpm.

Hey Zombiekiller,

Great initiative. When I was racing my C5 Z06 in Germany at Hockenhiem, I added power courtesy of Katech Racing and brakes courtesy of Movit, http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/home/, the last thing I needed was additional cooling for the diff and tranny, and motor. Doug Rippie Motorsports, a tried and trued racing company, developed a C5 Z06 diff and tranny cooling package. It was a great kit, with tilton high flow pumps, toggle switches, and the addition of Autometer Cobalt Blue gauges mounted on the A-pillar kit from Autometer also.

If you are truly investigating a way to get coolers for the Shelby (Note: I am still waiting for my GT350, Tech, est. build date, 7 March:-), I believe we should contact racing companies similar to Doug Rippie Motorsports, and see what kind of off the shelf components they could cobble together for us.

I already have mentioned Summit Racing, surprised no one has taken the time to explore that, because their are numerous tranny and diff coolers, along with high flow Tilton pumps. We can surely among our collective selves, once we figure the mounting and hose routing requirements, can solve this problem ourselves.

Agreed, we need to see where the factory coolers are mounted and see the routing scheme. I am personally not against having two additional gauges for the diff and tranny mounted in the A pillar, gives it somewhat of a cool race car look, haha. If my then 17 year old son and I can install tranny and diff coolers in the craft shop, I think others can as well.

I already have parts selected in my summit cart for what I believe would solve the problem; however, I need to specifications, size, and mounting locations for the factory parts so that I can match as closely as possible, the Summit racing parts.

BTW, here are what the DRM coolers look like: http://dougrippie.com/products/tranny-and-diff-cooler-package/

I personally like the Fluidyne coolers. I did a lot of HPDE at Hockenheim,Germany and these were good for not just 20 minute bouts, but for sanctioned races lasting almost all day, and the next day. This is one of the races I did: http://www.scci.ch/fileadmin/templates/impressionen/impressionen_cem.html

Lets get some coolers!

 

[autobahnGT350]

Thanks much for getting the ball rolling.

Does a week sound like a reasonable amount of time for an acceptable response, after which it goes to magazines?

Hi Caballus,

Are you stationed in Germany?

It will be real interesting to see how well the GT350 holds up on the autobahn with high speed cruising at around 130-160 MPH (240-260KPH). I ran my C5 Z06 one time from the Heidelberg PX to Ktown in 25 minutes, and my transmission went into high temp mode when I arrived.

I was trying to stay above 170MPH the whole time. It was on a German holiday in 2009, and way less traffic, so it was easy. I heard the bahn is uber crowded nowadays. Is yours a tech or track pack. Is Bitburg airbase still doing autocross?

 

[zombiekiller]

Hey Zombiekiller,

Great initiative. When I was racing my C5 Z06 in Germany at Hockenhiem, I added power courtesy of Katech Racing and brakes courtesy of Movit, http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/home/, the last thing I needed was additional cooling for the diff and tranny, and motor. Doug Rippie Motorsports, a tried and trued racing company, developed a C5 Z06 diff and tranny cooling package. It was a great kit, with tilton high flow pumps, toggle switches, and the addition of Autometer Cobalt Blue gauges mounted on the A-pillar kit from Autometer also.

If you are truly investigating a way to get coolers for the Shelby (Note: I am still waiting for my GT350, Tech, est. build date, 7 March:-), I believe we should contact racing companies similar to Doug Rippie Motorsports, and see what kind of off the shelf components they could cobble together for us.

I already have mentioned Summit Racing, surprised no one has taken the time to explore that, because their are numerous tranny and diff coolers, along with high flow Tilton pumps. We can surely among our collective selves, once we figure the mounting and hose routing requirements, can solve this problem ourselves.

Agreed, we need to see where the factory coolers are mounted and see the routing scheme. I am personally not against having two additional gauges for the diff and tranny mounted in the A pillar, gives it somewhat of a cool race car look, haha. If my then 17 year old son and I can install tranny and diff coolers in the craft shop, I think others can as well.

I already have parts selected in my summit cart for what I believe would solve the problem; however, I need to specifications, size, and mounting locations for the factory parts so that I can match as closely as possible, the Summit racing parts.

BTW, here are what the DRM coolers look like: http://dougrippie.com/products/tranny-and-diff-cooler-package/

I personally like the Fluidyne coolers. I did a lot of HPDE at Hockenheim,Germany and these were good for not just 20 minute bouts, but for sanctioned races lasting almost all day, and the next day. This is one of the races I did: http://www.scci.ch/fileadmin/templates/impressionen/impressionen_cem.html

Lets get some coolers!

I'm with you! If i'm doing this on my own, i'd like to use the factory mounts for the trans and diff finned portions of the coolers. It appears through the parts diagrams that all of the brackets are available and an easy fit. What i'm not clear on is the difference in airflow ducting and routing that appears to be "with coolers" and "without coolers" specific. It looks like in the diagrams that some of the ducting is different on the front end. The rear end diffuser is identical, so my initial feeling is that it should be completely easy to just add the diff cooler finned portion in the factory mounting location.

As far as a differential fluid temp gauge and a trans temp guage, i'm not keen on the a pillar mounting. I'd prefer to do something like use temp actuated switches, then run a small digital display, mounted between the usb port and charging port below the HVAC controls.

I'd love to bring ideas and specs to whatever company might be interested in working on the project. If you have contacts at a specific company, would you be willing to connect me with them?

 

[snaproll]

If you need to install a trans or diff cooler, just run an oil line out of drain plug hole, In line pump, cooler, return to fill plug, Hide the switch under the dash or somewhere in the console. Done. No need to pull a the trans.

 

[Spa2k]

I just got off the phone with Mike to check on the status of my car (in production!), and he definitely has been hearing about the coolers issue from both sides and will send his notes up the food chain. FP does pay attention to Mustang6G.

From my standpoint, the whole issue at this time (and maybe forever) is overblown and applies to a very small group of owners who think they've been wronged. But as of this moment the number of documented complaints from real-world situations is miniscule. We don't know what caused those cars to go into the limp mode - overheating? bad sensor? wiring short? position of the moon? Who knows? I'm sorry you guys are unhappy with your cars even before you had a problem with them, but we need more information - a lot more information.

I easily could be in the group of Tech buyers who feel they were wronged by Ford, especially since the information about adding coolers to Tech cars for track use was not released (or discovered) until long after the Ordering Guides were published - and months after some of us had ordered our Tech package cars. However, as long as the production process has taken, I (and I believe anyone else) had more than adequate time to cancel or change the order prior to production. So, that's on me - and you, if you were one of the early buyers. If you didn't order your car and bought it long-distance or off the floor of your local dealer, maybe you just got a little overexcited because you finally found a GT 350 at a deal you could live with and jumped on it without thinking in complete detail how you'd use it. (Been there, done that.)

No matter what your situation, I hope it's resolved to your satisfaction - either in your own mind or otherwise. But climbing on a bandwagon to tar and feather Ford and threaten lawsuits at this point is beyond wrong - it's silly. Does "the most track-capable" apply to the GT 350 line in general, or only the cars where the copy specifically says "track?" Does "the most track-capable" indicate "ability" or "potential?"

Maybe we should ask Bill Clinton what the meaning of "is" is. :shrug:

 

[Caballus]

Hi Caballus,

Are you stationed in Germany?

It will be real interesting to see how well the GT350 holds up on the autobahn with high speed cruising at around 130-160 MPH (240-260KPH). I ran my C5 Z06 one time from the Heidelberg PX to Ktown in 25 minutes, and my transmission went into high temp mode when I arrived.

I was trying to stay above 170MPH the whole time. It was on a German holiday in 2009, and way less traffic, so it was easy. I heard the bahn is uber crowded nowadays. Is yours a tech or track pack. Is Bitburg airbase still doing autocross?

Hey--Yes I am. I may have been here at that time as well. Been here quite a while.

Yes, it's the tech pkg. Currently en route to Baltimore.

The autobahn is crowded depending on time of day, but there are still several good long strips where you can get an hour + of unrestricted speed--(81 toward Singen; 7 from Ülm toward the Austrian border; most of 9 and other strips in the east, etc). You get the occasional 130kph zones thrown in, but not many, especially if you hit it on a Sunday.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it holds up, although I am extremely irritated by what I'm learning. I do not plan on living on the track, but I do plan to take it out the Hockenheim and to the Nürburgring from time to time. I didn't plan on putting it under any more stress than my 2001 325i or current 2006 330i could handle. However, what I'm learning is that it may not be able to handle a single run on the ring and may not be able to make it from Ülm to the border without problems. I've gone from looking forward to the car being delivered to being disgusted that I bought it. Feels like a 60k ripoff...

 

[Caballus]

I just got off the phone with Mike to check on the status of my car (in production!), and he definitely has been hearing about the coolers issue from both sides and will send his notes up the food chain. FP does pay attention to Mustang6G.

From my standpoint, the whole issue at this time (and maybe forever) is overblown and applies to a very small group of owners who think they've been wronged. But as of this moment the number of documented complaints from real-world situations is miniscule. We don't know what caused those cars to go into the limp mode - overheating? bad sensor? wiring short? position of the moon? Who knows? I'm sorry you guys are unhappy with your cars even before you had a problem with them, but we need more information - a lot more information.

I easily could be in the group of Tech buyers who feel they were wronged by Ford, especially since the information about adding coolers to Tech cars for track use was not released (or discovered) until long after the Ordering Guides were published - and months after some of us had ordered our Tech package cars. However, as long as the production process has taken, I (and I believe anyone else) had more than adequate time to cancel or change the order prior to production. So, that's on me - and you, if you were one of the early buyers. If you didn't order your car and bought it long-distance or off the floor of your local dealer, maybe you just got a little overexcited because you finally found a GT 350 at a deal you could live with and jumped on it without thinking in complete detail how you'd use it. (Been there, done that.)

No matter what your situation, I hope it's resolved to your satisfaction - either in your own mind or otherwise. But climbing on a bandwagon to tar and feather Ford and threaten lawsuits at this point is beyond wrong - it's silly. Does "the most track-capable" apply to the GT 350 line in general, or only the cars where the copy specifically says "track?" Does "the most track-capable" indicate "ability" or "potential?"

Maybe we should ask Bill Clinton what the meaning of "is" is. :shrug:

How do you keep putting this back on the buyer? A modern, off the shelf sports car that cannot handle a track session of more than 20 minutes is a unthinkable. That any variant of the GT350 cannot, after all Ford's marketing, is disgusting. No one should have to pay 60K based on what has been advertised by one of the foremost auto corporations in America, then read the owners manual to find out the corporation hyped the vehicle, then cancel their order. That's crazy. Now we mince words to show how the consumer was mistaken in their interpretation? OK, it's not the cover up we saw with the exploding Pinto, but it's bogus and Ford needs to fix it. Simple.

 

[1320']

How do you keep putting this back on the buyer? A modern, off the shelf sports car that cannot handle a track session of more than 20 minutes is a unthinkable. That any variant of the GT350 cannot, after all Ford's marketing, is disgusting. No one should have to pay 60K based on what has been advertised by one of the foremost auto corporations in America, then read the owners manual to find out the corporation hyped the vehicle, then cancel their order. That's crazy. Now we mince words to show how the consumer was mistaken in their interpretation? OK, it's not the cover up we saw with the exploding Pinto, but it's bogus and Ford needs to fix it. Simple.

You show me where Ford said ALL GT350's were 100% track capable and ready.

When someone is going to spend $60,000 on a vehicle I would expect them to fully and completely research it. Did you pause to wonder why Ford offered a Track Package and a Technology Package? Both include MagneRide, one has leather comfort and infotainment stuff..so why is there a track package? Because the other has the coolers needed for sustained, hard performance driving.
You're living in an area that the GT350 wasn't even designed for. The US doesn't have unrestricted speed zones..there isn't anywhere in the US where the engine is going to be spinning at 6,000 RPM for more than a second or two at a time under a WOT acceleration or an airport runway top speed run.

Ford offered MULTIPLE versions of the GT350 to fit multiple types of buyers. If Ford had offered the coolers on ONLY the GT350R then I could see some space for anger and justified frustration. However they offered two packages..one for cruising/spirited driving comfort, one for high performance track driving. Should Ford treat their customers like simpleton morons? Developmentally challenged special needs cases that needs things slowly and painfully explained to them? Or should they provide details and expect their customers to research and apply their own critical thinking skills?

If you don't want your Tech Pack car..then refuse delivery, pay the coin, send it back and order a 2017 GT350 that has the track pack as standard. Otherwise..don't demand Ford fix your oversight when they provided all the information you would have needed to make a well reasoned and considered decision on which package to buy.

 

[autobahnGT350]

I'm with you! If i'm doing this on my own, i'd like to use the factory mounts for the trans and diff finned portions of the coolers.

I'd love to bring ideas and specs to whatever company might be interested in working on the project. If you have contacts at a specific company, would you be willing to connect me with them?

My first instinct would be to ask traditional Ford Mustang tuning companies; ala, Roush, Steeda, Saleen, etc., to see if they have considered and/or using coolers for their racing support efforts. I am too much of a newbie in Mustang specific firms, since having left the fold of Katech Racing, Lingenfelter, Callaway, etc. I am still a car guy who appreciates a variety of cars, and can speak the same language concerning typical automobile parts, so, I guess I will get on the horn and start making phone calls to these Mustang tuners, and/or Ford racing companies.

I am almost certain that an aftermarket company will jump on this effort soon as it is too good of a lucrative opportunity for someone. Heck, you and I can put the package together, once we know the appropriate mounting tolerances, plumbing lengths, fittings and adapters, and decide to run static or forced flow. I am making sound way to easy, but you get the gist I hope. Lets call that company the "AutobahnZombieKiller, LLC., haha.

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