Kenne Bell and Whipple debate thread (technical)

[Barrel]

You should figure about 8 hours of labor times whatever they charge per hour.

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[Jmeo]

Thanks guys


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[Barrel]

And if I were you Jaime I'd replace both the OPG and timing sprocket while you've got it opened up if you decide to get it done.

 

[Travis@boostworks]

Our shop charges 1000.00 for the labor to do the timing gear, oil pump, and re-time/reassemble.

 

[Mike@KenneBell]

Travis at BoostWorks is correct. Our first 2.8, 3.2 2015 5.0 kits began shipping way back in Jan. 2015. All other kits (3.6, 4.2, and 4.7) are shipping in 2 weeks. These larger kits were delayed because of the lower sloping 2015 hood. Since the stock engine mounts are hardly high performance pieces, we chose to include billet engine mounts that also lower the engine an additional ¾” to add clearance for the supercharger. We use the same approach on the new Shelby Super Snake 5.0 and 07-14 Shelby GT500.
Every OEM and aftermarket manufacturers have their own long and short term goals. Ever since we introduced our Auto Rotor Twin Screw Mustang kit in 1990, our goal has been to offer our customers the largest and most powerful superchargers and inlet systems. We just happened to luck out and fit our largest rear inlet supercharger under the stock hood or we may not have offered a kit. A fiberglass hood for the 2015 with its “fender hood” would have been a deal breaker for us.
Today, the big difference is progress and technology by the OEM’s (engines) and supercharger manufacturers (superchargers, inlet systems, throttle bodies, intercoolers, manifolds and fuel systems). That’s good for all of us and our customers. It’s what makes these forums so much fun. Consider we have come from 350HP non-intercooled 6 psi 5.0 86-95 GT’s to 725 HP (91 octane/10psi)-940HP (E85/18psi) with a 100% stock factory 5.0 4v engine. Granted it won’t live forever with 18psi but it sure will with forged rods and pistons-just as all the Shelby GT500’s do.
With the demise of the supercharged OEM Shelby GT500 in 2014, the heir apparent is the supercharged 11’ up 5.0 which is capable of 725-1100 street pump gas HP with our latest design supercharger kits.
The potential and room to grow also looks great for this platform. Should be a lot of fun for many years to come. We’re betting on it. It’s why Kenne Bell has invested so much in testing equipment, R&D, new product, Patents, 50 State Legal emissions etc.
The latest good news is the new Ford Racing block has solved the high HP block failure issues that have plagued us since 2011. This season we have tested the new Ford Racing block at 36psi in Johnny Lightning’s 1400HP Cobra Jet. 38psi to be tested next week. No block filling required and the CJ doesn’t look like it went through a car wash after every run. Johnny has figured out how to seal the heads to the block.
Yes, cam timing of these cars with a supercharger is a challenging task, but every problem is an opportunity. Ford gave us a lot to work with by allowing the advance and retarding both sets of cams. In the old days I would R&R and dyno test 15 cams in 2 full days just to determine optimum lobe centers. Today we are able to “tune” the same 15 pulls on our own Dynojet in 2 hours without getting dirty. Then we work on the almost infinite number of opening and closing events. Yep, we are able to move torque and HP curves around depending on the PC (engine HP required to drive the supercharger), boost, timing and various other factors. But there are more HP/TQ variables than cams that owners should be aware of when selecting an SC kit based only on an advertised number. To help avoid confusion with our customers we publish the variables.
Besides the 23HP (412-435HP) OEM ratings here are some considerations for 100% stock 5.0’s.
30HP- Auto vs manual trans
18HP- Differential gears
15HP- IRS (‘15vs 11-14 straight axle)
20HP- AFR
12HP- STD vs. SAE HP ratings (approx. 2%)
21-59HP- Throttle body
30HP- 93 vs. 91 octane
+100HP- Engine HP vs rear wheel HP rating
108HP- Ignition timing 130 -270
30HP- RPM 8000 vs 7500
130HP- Lock up vs. non lock up Torque converter
40HP- Closed hood vs. open hood. Don’t bother unless you plan on driving around with the hood up or removed.

 

[Jmeo]

And if I were you Jaime I'd replace both the OPG and timing sprocket while you've got it opened up if you decide to get it done.

Agreed, planning on mine getting done over the winter now. [emoji16]


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[Travis@boostworks]

Travis at BoostWorks is correct. Our first 2.8, 3.2 2015 5.0 kits began shipping way back in Jan. 2015. All other kits (3.6, 4.2, and 4.7) are shipping in 2 weeks. These larger kits were delayed because of the lower sloping 2015 hood. Since the stock engine mounts are hardly high performance pieces, we chose to include billet engine mounts that also lower the engine an additional ¾” to add clearance for the supercharger. We use the same approach on the new Shelby Super Snake 5.0 and 07-14 Shelby GT500.
Every OEM and aftermarket manufacturers have their own long and short term goals. Ever since we introduced our Auto Rotor Twin Screw Mustang kit in 1990, our goal has been to offer our customers the largest and most powerful superchargers and inlet systems. We just happened to luck out and fit our largest rear inlet supercharger under the stock hood or we may not have offered a kit. A fiberglass hood for the 2015 with its “fender hood” would have been a deal breaker for us.
Today, the big difference is progress and technology by the OEM’s (engines) and supercharger manufacturers (superchargers, inlet systems, throttle bodies, intercoolers, manifolds and fuel systems). That’s good for all of us and our customers. It’s what makes these forums so much fun. Consider we have come from 350HP non-intercooled 6 psi 5.0 86-95 GT’s to 725 HP (91 octane/10psi)-940HP (E85/18psi) with a 100% stock factory 5.0 4v engine. Granted it won’t live forever with 18psi but it sure will with forged rods and pistons-just as all the Shelby GT500’s do.
With the demise of the supercharged OEM Shelby GT500 in 2014, the heir apparent is the supercharged 11’ up 5.0 which is capable of 725-1100 street pump gas HP with our latest design supercharger kits.
The potential and room to grow also looks great for this platform. Should be a lot of fun for many years to come. We’re betting on it. It’s why Kenne Bell has invested so much in testing equipment, R&D, new product, Patents, 50 State Legal emissions etc.
The latest good news is the new Ford Racing block has solved the high HP block failure issues that have plagued us since 2011. This season we have tested the new Ford Racing block at 36psi in Johnny Lightning’s 1400HP Cobra Jet. 38psi to be tested next week. No block filling required and the CJ doesn’t look like it went through a car wash after every run. Johnny has figured out how to seal the heads to the block.
Yes, cam timing of these cars with a supercharger is a challenging task, but every problem is an opportunity. Ford gave us a lot to work with by allowing the advance and retarding both sets of cams. In the old days I would R&R and dyno test 15 cams in 2 full days just to determine optimum lobe centers. Today we are able to “tune” the same 15 pulls on our own Dynojet in 2 hours without getting dirty. Then we work on the almost infinite number of opening and closing events. Yep, we are able to move torque and HP curves around depending on the PC (engine HP required to drive the supercharger), boost, timing and various other factors. But there are more HP/TQ variables than cams that owners should be aware of when selecting an SC kit based only on an advertised number. To help avoid confusion with our customers we publish the variables.
Besides the 23HP (412-435HP) OEM ratings here are some considerations for 100% stock 5.0’s.
30HP- Auto vs manual trans
18HP- Differential gears
15HP- IRS (‘15vs 11-14 straight axle)
20HP- AFR
12HP- STD vs. SAE HP ratings (approx. 2%)
21-59HP- Throttle body
30HP- 93 vs. 91 octane
+100HP- Engine HP vs rear wheel HP rating
108HP- Ignition timing 130 -270
30HP- RPM 8000 vs 7500
130HP- Lock up vs. non lock up Torque converter
40HP- Closed hood vs. open hood. Don’t bother unless you plan on driving around with the hood up or removed.

And this, folks, is why we choose to use KB superchargers.. The level of knowledge, expertise, and track proven records all add up to something awesome. We're proud to be able to work with KB on testing, and we're proud to offer (what we feel) is one of the best supercharger systems on the planet.

 

[Super Werty]

I can show you a broken gears from S197's.. We've replaced them in cars with just about every brand of blower (Whipple included). It's not a brand thing.. it's a power thing.

I understand it is not a brand thing, it's related to power levels

Broken cast oil pump gears go all the way back to the early 2 valve days. I've been in this industry for 16 years. Granted, I'm not a metallurgist, but I've seen at least 2 dozen sets of broken oil pump gears personally in that time span, from cars that were brought in broken. Turbo, blower, nitrous, high RPM N/A.. It doesn't matter. Street cars, drag cars, mile cars.. I've seen them all break. The timing gear wasn't really an issue early on, but we've seen them break with bigger cams, and higher spring rates. The S550 Coyote's timing gear is even small than the S197 Coyote.

Obviously, if someone doesn't want to change them, that's fine.. but, I won't stamp my approval on a system that we sell without at least providing the parts to the customer, and advising them to swap them in. That customer can resell them, or hang them on the wall, or do whatever with them. But, considering what a fractured pump gear or timing gear could ultimately cost you, it's a small price to pay for peace of mind in the grand scheme of things. Most customers take heed and get that parts installed (or allow us to install them).

I don't doubt they need to replaced at some point, I'm just trying to figure out at what point should I do it. And who do I trust to do that kind of work.

Whipple obviously disagrees with your 600rwhp number. They are offering warranties if installed by them. Installing by them won't stop a OPG from breaking anymore than an individual install. My point being they seem confident that 700rwhp is safe

I'm curious what data they collected before offering an engine warranty. Surely they have some idea of what to expect concerning engine life

and fyi I bought the Whipple kit, not here yet...

 

[Poppacapp]

Yeah I swapped the OPG and timing sprocket for the peace of mind. The thought of either one letting go at 7k revs...ugh. For me it was important since my centri makes power with RPMs.

What kind of labor cost is involved in getting a shop to swap them for you?

Edit**** Nevermind... Saw the answers in following posts

 

[Travis@boostworks]

I understand it is not a brand thing, it's related to power levels



I don't doubt they need to replaced at some point, I'm just trying to figure out at what point should I do it. And who do I trust to do that kind of work.

Whipple obviously disagrees with your 600rwhp number. They are offering warranties if installed by them. Installing by them won't stop a OPG from breaking anymore than an individual install. My point being they seem confident that 700rwhp is safe

I'm curious what data they collected before offering an engine warranty. Surely they have some idea of what to expect concerning engine life

and fyi I bought the Whipple kit, not here yet...

I can't speak for Whipple.. I'm speaking from 16 years worth of experience with Modular Ford engines. There is no magic number.. but, we can narrow it down to a window where the incidence of gears failing. From our experience, regardless of power adder, that comes at around 600-650whp. We won't roll the dice on a customer's $7k engine and labor to fix it. It's not worth the risk. If we build you a car over 700whp or so, it's getting upgraded oil pump and timing chain sprocket. Do yourself a favor and get it done if you plan on making north of 650-700whp.

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