Is Magneride worth it? (Magneride explained)

[Hack]

If it's getting stiff enough to limit roll, it's not doing what it's supposed to, and would make the car feel horrible to drive. It's keeping the car feeling flat because of how slow it rolls, but roll it does. Keep in mind that the GT350 springs are around 40% stiffer wheel rate compared to your 15 GT (effective stiffness of the springs at the tire) by itself, not including the swaybars, which are also stiffer by a decent percentage. Those are actually reducing roll considerably. Combined with good damping, and it'll feel very flat and responsive.

What I'm reading from your answer is that you don't know specifically how stiff the Magneride shock can get.

The thing about Magneride is that it can be extremely stiff in compression and then be completely soft in compression depending on what the computer programming tells it to do. So when you say that if the shocks were programmed to prevent body roll then the car would feel horrible to drive - I'm not sure you were considering how the shocks can adjust when you said that. Why in your mind to you think Magneride can slow down body roll without a harsh ride being a problem, but if it were to limit body roll then suddenly a harsh ride will be a problem?

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[BmacIL]

What I'm reading from your answer is that you don't know specifically how stiff the Magneride shock can get.

The thing about Magneride is that it can be extremely stiff in compression and then be completely soft in compression depending on what the computer programming tells it to do. So when you say that if the shocks were programmed to prevent body roll then the car would feel horrible to drive - I'm not sure you were considering how the shocks can adjust when you said that. Why in your mind to you think Magneride can slow down body roll without a harsh ride being a problem, but if it were to limit body roll then suddenly a harsh ride will be a problem?

Do I know the rates? No. But I know exactly how they work. Also, outside of it being a very quickly and widely adjustable damper, it's still a mass-spring-damper system. It seems you're trying to convince yourself that magneride can change physics, based on this discussion. The dampers have calibrated tables, much like an engine map, of what target F vs. V curve to go to, given a variety of inputs, the most significant of which are damper shaft speed and lateral G.

 

[Hack]

Do I know the rates? No. But I know exactly how they work. Also, outside of it being a very quickly and widely adjustable damper, it's still a mass-spring-damper system. It seems you're trying to convince yourself that magneride can change physics, based on this discussion. The dampers have calibrated tables, much like an engine map, of what target F vs. V curve to go to, given a variety of inputs, the most significant of which are damper shaft speed and lateral G.

I'm not sure how writing a program that limits body roll has to change physics. Suspension movements that correspond to body roll can be treated differently than those corresponding to pavement defects. In other words, if a single wheel wants to move, the corresponding shock can allow it. If all 4 wheels want to move in a pattern suggesting body roll, the shocks can prevent that. Both situations can occur at the same time; with the right programming the computer will understand which wheel movements correspond to road defects and accommodate those while still preventing wheel movements that correspond to roll or pitch.

Especially with the inputs from speedometer, steering and brakes (along with others) and a known vehicle weight and acceleration it should be quite possible to make the shocks do what you want. Allow the nose of the vehicle to come up for weight transfer to the drive wheels under acceleration, but still prevent the nose from diving under braking, etc.

 

[TomcatDriver]

If it's getting stiff enough to limit roll, it's not doing what it's supposed to, and would make the car feel horrible to drive. It's keeping the car feeling flat because of how slow it rolls, but roll it does. Keep in mind that the GT350 springs are around 40% stiffer wheel rate compared to your 15 GT (effective stiffness of the springs at the tire) by itself, not including the swaybars, which are also stiffer by a decent percentage. Those are actually reducing roll considerably. Combined with good damping, and it'll feel very flat and responsive.

I am honestly curious about this statement. Why would it make the car feel horrible if it were limiting roll? My understanding is the Magnaride system gets inputs from the steering wheel angle, brakes, throttle position along with various accelerometers. I would think that it's little algorithm would be able to calculate anticipated sideforce based on steering wheel angle and speed as well as the vehicle's natural period and significantly stiffen the outside shocks for XX milliseconds to reduce body roll without otherwise affecting ride quality. Similarly with abrupt braking and acceleration.

 

[BmacIL]

I am honestly curious about this statement. Why would it make the car feel horrible if it were limiting roll? My understanding is the Magnaride system gets inputs from the steering wheel angle, brakes, throttle position along with various accelerometers. I would think that it's little algorithm would be able to calculate anticipated sideforce based on steering wheel angle and speed as well as the vehicle's natural period and significantly stiffen the outside shocks for XX milliseconds to reduce body roll without otherwise affecting ride quality. Similarly with abrupt braking and acceleration.

If it increased damping enough to physically limit roll, i.e. a hard stop, I assure you that the car would not respond favorably. It would be erratic and inconsistent, and would also drive load spikes into the tires that are not ideal for anything. Obviously the magneride adjusts based on a pretty high sampling rate, so it can change. The point is that the dampers do not limit roll. They are an energy absorber. The higher the rate of energy absorption, the more resistive force there is, BUT dampers have resistive force propertional to inputs. Magneride allows you to manipulate the curves how you want. Regardless of the magnetic particles inside, it's still a piston set moving through fluid. It's not an electromagnet that allows for whatever type of behavior you could imagine.

 

[DickR]

There is some useful info in this Car and Driver technical article.

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-car-and-driver-article-for-suspensions-june-2017

Google Koni, Penske, and other high end racing damper manufacturers and tuners to find detailed information regarding the interaction of damping at various shaft velocities.

This stuff is really complicated.

 

[BmacIL]

There is some useful info in this Car and Driver technical article.

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-car-and-driver-article-for-suspensions-june-2017

Google Koni, Penske, and other high end racing damper manufacturers and tuners to find detailed information regarding the interaction of damping at various shaft velocities.

This stuff is really complicated.

Indeed it is. I've done racecar damper tuning myself before, from scratch. A lot of work goes into it.

 

[DickR]

Here is some more info from C&D, Penske, and Koni.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/automotive-dampers-explained-how-6-common-types-work-feature

https://blog.caranddriver.com/prime...tic-spool-valve-damper-to-reveal-its-secrets/

https://blog.caranddriver.com/update-your-corvette-damper-software/

https://blog.caranddriver.com/watch...ly-capable-suspension-pound-the-ground-video/

https://www.penskeshocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Mustang-Manual.pdf

https://www.penskeshocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/TECH-MANUAL-PS-7500-DA-08-10.pdf

https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Car-SUV/Over-Under-Steer/

https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Products/Cars/Street-Performance/Sport/

 

[TomcatDriver]

If it increased damping enough to physically limit roll, i.e. a hard stop, I assure you that the car would not respond favorably. It would be erratic and inconsistent, and would also drive load spikes into the tires that are not ideal for anything. Obviously the magneride adjusts based on a pretty high sampling rate, so it can change. The point is that the dampers do not limit roll. They are an energy absorber. The higher the rate of energy absorption, the more resistive force there is, BUT dampers have resistive force propertional to inputs. Magneride allows you to manipulate the curves how you want. Regardless of the magnetic particles inside, it's still a piston set moving through fluid. It's not an electromagnet that allows for whatever type of behavior you could imagine.

Rather than limiting total roll which would be limited by spring rates and anti-sway bars, I would thing the magnetic dampers would be effective at reducing transient roll and associated inertial effects.

 

[Trackaholic]

unless the damper is completely solid, the system will eventually reach the same steady state position as a soft damper. And if you locked out the suspension by trying to make the shock that stiff, the ride (and performance) would be terrible. This is what people are talking about when they say that the magneride campers don’t reduce roll.

However, due to their rapid adjustability, it is possible for the controller to change the damping based on steering, braking, acceleration, etc. This means that the speed of the body motions can be reduced, such that transient roll and pitch can be reduced as some have mentioned already.

In the end, it comes down to time constants and whether “steady state” ever occurs in performance driving.

The GT350 feels much lighter than its 3800 lbs would suggest. I believe a large part of that is due to the magneride dampers. If I were buying a 2018 GT, I would strongly consider them. Of course the final feelmdepens on the programming, so I’d want a test drive to see how they are tuned.

-T

 

[BmacIL]

unless the damper is completely solid, the system will eventually reach the same steady state position as a soft damper. And if you locked out the suspension by trying to make the shock that stiff, the ride (and performance) would be terrible. This is what people are talking about when they say that the magneride campers don’t reduce roll.

However, due to their rapid adjustability, it is possible for the controller to change the damping based on steering, braking, acceleration, etc. This means that the speed of the body motions can be reduced, such that transient roll and pitch can be reduced as some have mentioned already.

In the end, it comes down to time constants and whether “steady state” ever occurs in performance driving.

The GT350 feels much lighter than its 3800 lbs would suggest. I believe a large part of that is due to the magneride dampers. If I were buying a 2018 GT, I would strongly consider them. Of course the final feelmdepens on the programming, so I’d want a test drive to see how they are tuned.

-T

:cheers:

 

[Spork3245]

Be careful.

Dampers don't control steady-state amounts of roll, as they only affect transient behaviors (while the suspension is still moving).

That said, better dampers (better via any technology) can affect your perception of roll and the time it takes for the chassis to take a set, and they would reduce any tendency for the car to "overshoot" its steady-state roll angle.


Norm

Yes, I meant in terms of ride comfort, not necessarily track usage to where you’re getting a non-existent sense of safety. I should have been more clear.

 

[redtrack]

As far as I know, the weight of the car, is taken care by the springs.
So when cornering, the weight of the car on the outside wheels is supported by the springs, the harder less body roll. In addition the sway bars,also take care of the body roll.
The damper/shocks, controls the up and downs, (compression/rebound) to keep the tires in contact with the pavement.
So the new suspension with harder springs and bigger swaybars, corners flatter, while having a smoother ride, thanks to the magneride shocks.
Just my 2cents.

 

[Timeless]

I didn't say you wouldn't be able to feel the difference. This thread is about the "worth" of magneride. Those living in states with shitty roads will value magneride much more than those living in the south with great roads. There is much more value to be had with the ability to dampen out road irregularities than any performance increase. If I still lived in Michigan, I would strongly consider magenride. Living in South Carolina, I would much rather spend the extra money on other items.

Wish I knew where these awesome roads were...they SUCK in Columbia.

 

[w3rkn]

In steady state cornering, the damper does not reduce roll. The overall roll stiffness from the springs and bars, along with the geometry (roll center), determines roll angle for a given lateral acceleration. In transient motions, I'm sure it does greatly reduce roll, because the sprung mass hasn't settled to its steady state before the input/acceleration is changed. In that transient state, the dampers make the body roll slower.

As norm stated, the perception of roll is the biggest difference. Even Randy agrees (go to 18:45) ;)

I think the point that You and Norm are overstating(/overlooking)is that magneride can see what the other corners are doing and work in conjunction with them. (ergo: in real time, before, during and after steady state). Magneride uses real world physics and does alter the suspension's vibrations, travel and roll. Again, even though MR itself doesn't control the roll, it effects it by constantly altering the forces applied, which would be different if you had a traditional suspension.

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