Is Ford lacking on performance?

[Norm Peterson]

No it shouldn't. As an owner of a PP1, I find the ride a bit jarring sometimes depending on the road.That wouldn't bode well for the baby boomers, who make up a large percentage of Mustang sales, that desire a smooth ride which a non-PP1 GT provides.

One thing about generalizations . . . you have to be a little careful. I'm at the older end of that generation (I'm 70), and many of the other drivers I see at track days are also on the far side of 50. This is particularly true when my home track puts on one of their own events and there are more track club members out there (club membership isn't cheap). Or for mid-week track days (being retired or at least semi-retired can make weekday events easier to arrange for than weekend dates)

The boomer who's looking for a soft ride - dare I mention Buick here - probably isn't going to be cross-shopping anything from that store with a Mustang or a Camaro in the first place.


Norm

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[Snagged]

How is it not fair? Ford intended for it to be a certain price, and just because some people want the car bad enough to pay extra for it does not mean that that's its intended market. If that were the case, we'd be comparing GT350Rs to Z06s

Agreed. You can't throw in dealer's greed in the mix (i.e. ADM) when comparing cars.

 

[EJS2016]

Noted.
DOB: 1963 = Boomer
If PP1 or PP2 was available in ‘16 with the A6, I would have ordered it.

 

[Rocketman]

One thing about generalizations . . . you have to be a little careful. I'm at the older end of that generation (I'm 70), and many of the other drivers I see at track days are also on the far side of 50. This is particularly true when my home track puts on one of their own events and there are more track club members out there (club membership isn't cheap). Or for mid-week track days (being retired or at least semi-retired can make weekday events easier to arrange for than weekend dates)

The boomer who's looking for a soft ride - dare I mention Buick here - probably isn't going to be cross-shopping anything from that store with a Mustang or a Camaro in the first place.


Norm

I didn't mean that as a slight to your generation at all so I apologize if it seemed that way.

You are obviously the exception to the rule, but generally older drivers prefer a more comfortable ride and many of them, after retirement and not having to support their kids anymore, now have the funds to buy their dream Mustang.

 

[jake_zx2]

Obviously the car doesn't compete where you think it should, but is the name really so wrong when compared to the line up of the Mustang? Could it be better? Yes. But does it offer more performance than a base GT? Definitely yes. Therefor it is a Performance Pack for the GT. Braking performance is improved, cornering performance is improved, acceleration performance is improved.

Now I don't have any of the experience you guys have with it, but I think that merits the name. The competition's car is just better equipped from the start and the 1LE is their version of a Performance Pack and further improves on it.

Again, I understand that the competition is there and should be better addressed, but I think Ford is more working just on its own line up and naming things based on that in somewhat of a silo. Hopefully the GT500 is a complete beast of a machine that addresses the issues from this thread, but we won't know more on that for awhile.

All of this

How a PP2 compares to a 1LE on the track is yet to be determined. The PP2 has the right suspension components and tires to compete. Longer track runs may bring the lack of coolers into play, but these are cheap fixes. It's all about compromises. With the 1LE, you compromise with less visibility, less ergonomics, and less space. With the PP2, you compromise with less drivetrain cooling.


The way I see it, the Camaro ONLY offers a performance package car. The "base" SS is a performance pack, while the 1LE is the track pack. The Mustang GT is a real base, and priced that way. I think horse has been dead for months. Some people just think Ford shouldn't offer a true base. I think it is a smart decision. Hardcore racers will prefer buying a cheap base and build the car to fit their needs.

Agreed. There's a reason GM is making a more base model car, the SS is a "performance pack" as it sits

Try looking at it like this; Ford's PP1 would compare about to where your own Nurburgring S197 build would have ended up if you'd chosen Eibach Pro springs, one of the better mass-market choices in OE-replacement dampers, and 18x9 wheels with Kuhmo Ecsta PS31 tires. Better than base OE? Sure. But not all that much of a step up, and you'd have known that you left some low-hanging fruit.


I suppose for those who don't ever intentionally drive beyond about 0.3g (in any direction), the PP1 actually would feel like it was performance-intended. That doesn't make it true for those who drive somewhat harder.


Norm

That's a great comparison, and you have to think about it this way; for 99% of people, that's all that they'll want. It's budget friendly, not harsh on the street, but offers a fair amount of improved performance over the base. Sure, it could be better, but they don't want it to be. The 1% are the ones in this thread. Like I've said, I would love if Ford would offer more performance. However, I completely understand the business case for not taking that route, and as someone else has said, the tradeoffs can be corrected fairly cheaply and easily as opposed to the Camaro

 

[bootlegger]

When they don't compete well enough, it makes me think that they're only paying lip service to one of the more important things I look for in a car. Like they'd rather the Mustang stop at being only a little more than a RWD version of the Fusion or Taurus.
Norm

Clearly you don't have much seat time in the PP1. This is so far disconnected from reality, I don't even know where to start. Show me the Taurus that is even close to giving a BMW M car a run for its money on the track.

That really is about the upper end of most drivers' intentional driving experience. I've repeatedly found that to be true from pacing traffic and actually measuring it. Very few people keep up at 0.5g laterally, and 0.7g runs away and hides from just about anybody you'll ever share the same stretch of road with.

These days, 0.3g braking is being considered "hard braking" by some of the insurance companies who offer discounts based on monitoring such things about your driving (0.5g being 'extreme').

Those 0.3g-max drivers have no idea what car behavior is really like, and even the occasional 0.5-er's are only getting a hint.

I have regularly had the car at or over 0.8G laterally, and it handles great. This is without really even pushing it, just an aggressive run in an on-ramp with complete control. At 0.5 to 0.8G, there is very little roll, and plenty of grip. It does have some mild understeer, but I am used to it after owning an STI.
Again, I think you are making a lot of comments with little experience in the car. The PP1 is a solid performance car. It handles wonderfully, even if it can't beat the more expensive 1LE. Both cars make the expensive European cars sweat on the track. I can understand that people want it to beat the Camaro, but let's not make up BS about it not handling well.

 

[Snagged]

Agreed. An item is worth what someone wants to pay for it. It's the dealers that are making the extra profits, not Ford.

And it's funny some people like to compare a supercharged 6.2L camaro making 650HP and 650lb-ft of torque against a mustang with a 5.2L engine making 526hp and 429lb-ft of torque...and then puffing their chests when it manages a puny 0.39 second win around a (large, fast) track. I'm curious if the GT350R would have actually beat the Zl1 around a smaller, more technical track such as Streets of Willow.

Agreed to this too. I think it just speaks volumes of how nice the GT350 is. A NA car against forced induction is a certainly a huge difference. Not to mention the engine of the ZL1 is a 6.2.

 

[millhouse]

No it shouldn't. As an owner of a PP1, I find the ride a bit jarring sometimes depending on the road. That wouldn't bode well for the baby boomers, who make up a large percentage of Mustang sales, that desire a smooth ride which a non-PP1 GT provides.

Driving down here in the south, my PP1 rides fantastic. Having recently driven up to the frigid tundra in Michigan, the ride was TERRIBLE on those pathetic roads.

Any search in the general forums will find folks looking how to soften even the base GT suspension. Magazines times only sell so many cars.

 

[millhouse]

Clearly you don't have much seat time in the PP1. This is so far disconnected from reality, I don't even know where to start. Show me the Taurus that is even close to giving a BMW M car a run for its money on the track.


I have regularly had the car at or over 0.8G laterally, and it handles great. This is without really even pushing it, just an aggressive run in an on-ramp with complete control. At 0.5 to 0.8G, there is very little roll, and plenty of grip. It does have some mild understeer, but I am used to it after owning an STI.
Again, I think you are making a lot of comments with little experience in the car. The PP1 is a solid performance car. It handles wonderfully, even if it can't beat the more expensive 1LE. Both cars make the expensive European cars sweat on the track. I can understand that people want it to beat the Camaro, but let's not make up BS about it not handling well.

And it's even better after switching to more predictable tires.

 

[Zero]

I drove an 18' PP1 not too long ago and absolutely *loved* how effortlessly it handled corners. Very confidence inspiring!

 

[Hack]

That really is about the upper end of most drivers' intentional driving experience. I've repeatedly found that to be true from pacing traffic and actually measuring it. Very few people keep up at 0.5g laterally, and 0.7g runs away and hides from just about anybody you'll ever share the same stretch of road with.

Norm

Are you following Mustang drivers around town, or are you talking about people who are busy texting while driving in their 10 year old compact SUV? Or doing other "distracted" things such as measuring this n that... :shrug:

Seriously, you are stretching way too hard to try to come out ahead in this discussion.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I can understand that people want it to beat the Camaro, but let's not make up BS about it not handling well.

Wishing it cornered and handled better is not the same thing as "it does not handle well". Nobody is saying the PP1 doesn't handle at least reasonably well, just pointing out that it's "not as good as it could have been".

Maybe Ford has fixed the 'bounciness' that many people complained about early on, maybe they haven't.

For some, a little better than base is enough. But it implies that Ford didn't care enough to actually do what it would have taken to get to "a lot better".

I'd have been much happier if it'd only been a second slower around the track than the 1LE; you'd at least be keeping the Camaro in sight for a couple of laps. Not like letting the Camaro pull out a football field and a half gap every lap (about what that 3.3 second deficit corresponds to in terms of distance) or finding it in your mirrors for a second time toward the end of a 20 minute session.


Norm

 

[Fatguy]

Are you following Mustang drivers around town, or are you talking about people who are busy texting while driving in their 10 year old compact SUV? Or doing other "distracted" things such as measuring this n that... :shrug:

Seriously, you are stretching way too hard to try to come out ahead in this discussion.

Hey guys it’s just a discussion on some fan forum. It is my guess that many that have real talent and sponsorship have gag orders so you probably won’t see them here. Only questionable hacks like me.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Are you following Mustang drivers around town, or are you talking about people who are busy texting while driving in their 10 year old compact SUV? Or doing other "distracted" things such as measuring this n that... :shrug:

Seriously, you are stretching way too hard to try to come out ahead in this discussion.

I want to like the S550 - it's still on a short list - but its PP1 performance has disappointed me all along, and there aren't enough other things about any car that would distract my attention from this. I'm sure you know a few people who can't pass up any reasonable opportunity to go WOT in a couple of gears when the light turns green. Maybe I'm a little like that guy when it comes to the corners . . .

Trust my numbers, and don't be concerned about how I manage to safely obtain them.

Though if it means that much to you, this is how I'd do it these days if I felt the need to see if average traffic has generally gotten faster or slower (it's an easy run through one of my unofficial test loops). Saves having to recruit a right-seat volunteer, too.

Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

I'd have been much happier if it'd only been a second slower around the track than the 1LE; you'd at least be keeping the Camaro in sight for a couple of laps. Not like letting the Camaro pull out a football field and a half gap every lap (about what that 3.3 second deficit corresponds to in terms of distance) or finding it in your mirrors for a second time toward the end of a 20 minute session.\

I just really don't understand why you're upset that the 1LE is so much faster... Of course it's faster, that's the point of the car. The PP1 is not whatsoever meant to be competing against the 1LE, no matter how you look at it. It is meant to compete against the standard SS, which it does an excellent job with. The performance between those 2 cars really isn't too far off.

Ford claims that the PP2 isn't meant to compete with 1LE either, but we all know what the engineers had in mind when they developed that package. Maybe once (if) MT pits a PP2 up against a 1LE (like they should have from the beginning), your mind will be more at ease

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