Interesting Find and a Case for Paper

[ypena02]

None of the modifications I'm running violate the factory maximum mechanical specifications. I'm not running boost beyond 20 PSI, I'm running a 3.73 GT / Torsen rear when decreases engine load, I'm running a cooler thermostat which decreases cylinder head temps, colder plugs etc.

Might be a different story if I was running higher than spec boost without attaching temperature from all 4 angles...I did not imply because it didn't come from the factory it's not valid. But there are certain specs you do not want to violate and contamination is a very critical one, especially given it's effects on wear as well as creating hot spots which increases risk of knock / super knock.

Clean engines make more power and are less prone to mechanical problems than dirty engines, plain an simple. As the car ages, I'll bet my bottom dollar the ones running the AEM or OE paper filters will be making more power than the ones running oiled cotton filters under real driving conditions, especially if your not cleaning it at shorter intervals. It's a factor of added wear in concert with low capacity. Sure they make a little more power...but for only a short time. They make more sense for track use and less sense for street use applications. That's why OEM's don't use them.

Even the GT350, which is very track oriented top tier variant and featuring $15,000 carbon fiber wheels, a hand built 5.2L flat plane crank V8 unique to that car alone, uses a paper conical filter...there just might be something to it for street cars. One would think a car that's so track oriented would come with an oiled cotton filter given the fact that they even went so far to eek out performance they used ultra light weight carbon fiber wheels...But your welcome to do what you want, you might be fine in the long run or you might end up with compression issues, time will tell. It's not an immediate effect and there's lots of variables such as environment, service intervals etc. But I think many on this forum live in a similar climate with similar circumstances and uses and that's where I'm arguing the OE or AEM Dry filters just make more sense and that's the same reason OEM's are using them.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-con...d-Mustang-Shelby-GT350-GT350R-130-876x535.jpg

How do you think the tune makes more power? Magic? If the tune is not increasing boost then it is running a leaner air/fuel ratio and adding timing. Both of which increase the strain on the engine.

And how do you know that you're not violating the factory maximum mechanical specifications? Why don't you inform Ford about your mods and tune and see what they think :headbonk:

Sponsored

 

[TheLion]

How do you think the tune makes more power? Magic? If the tune is not increasing boost then it is running a leaner air/fuel ratio and adding timing. Both of which increase the strain on the engine.

And how do you know that you're not violating the factory maximum mechanical specifications? Why don't you inform Ford about your mods and tune and see what they think :headbonk:

There are other ways to increase power than by relying primarily on upping the boost pressure. You should probably be more informed about how a particular tuner does things before assuming they employ certain methods and then deriding me for understanding something about software I'm using in my own car...:frusty:

There are other ways to make more power on an ecoboost engine than increasing boost pressure as the primary mechanism. Do a little research on Livernois Ecoboost tune and you'll find that out.

At some point, if you want to continue making more power that will be required, but it's not required for them to put down 320whp and 360wtq on an otherwise bone stock ecoboost (and that's the auto, manual will show a bit higher as there's no converter losses).

There's no mechanical limit on timing other than knock and all modern engines have some level of knock resistance, there's no mechanical limit on AFR other than what the fuel system can manage.

But there are limits rod compression and tension stresses, there are limits on peak cylinder pressure etc. At any rate this is turning into a "he said, you said" argument.

If you want to find out more ask LMS for a more detailed explanation, but don't assume that your way of skinning the cat so to speak, is the only way. The whole point of this thread was focus on filter media and some of the risks down falls associated with oiled cotton filters which we all (myself included) seem to flock to, without realizing how effective they are in street applications.

Track applications and dyno runs in clean garages are one thing, but driving on dusty, salty, dirty streets is a completely different thing and that's what I found out. I have a Green Filter and have been using it, so I do have some grounds to speak on.

 

[ypena02]

There are other ways to increase power than by relying primarily on upping the boost pressure. You should probably be more informed about how a particular tuner does things before assuming they employ certain methods and then deriding me for understanding something about software I'm using in my own car...:frusty:

There are other ways to make more power on an ecoboost engine than increasing boost pressure as the primary mechanism. Do a little research on Livernois Ecoboost tune and you'll find that out.

Isn't that exactly what I said? If Livernois is not increasing boost then they are modifying af ratio and timing to gain more power. Both of which increase the strain on the engine.

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

I am curious about LMS' tuning strategy with their 93 octane tunes. There's definitely more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to tuning. I think if they're limiting boost to 20psi, then they are likely adding more timing and running richer a/f ratios to increase power up top. Hypertech utilized that same tuning strategy on the Mazdaspeed which was a pretty decent tune. It addressed the weak areas, marginally raised boost, added timing and fuel up top, removed the throttle restriction in 1st and 2nd gears and ultimately made the car into what it should have been from the factory. It's biggest limitation was it didn't offer any versatility once you exceeded FBO and or wanted to use ethanol blends.

 

[ypena02]

I am curious about LMS' tuning strategy with their 93 octane tunes. There's definitely more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to tuning. I think if they're limiting boost to 20psi, then they are likely adding more timing and running richer a/f ratios to increase power up top. Hypertech utilized that same tuning strategy on the Mazdaspeed which was a pretty decent tune. It addressed the weak areas, marginally raised boost, added timing and fuel up top, removed the throttle restriction in 1st and 2nd gears and ultimately made the car into what it should have been from the factory. It's biggest limitation was it didn't offer any versatility once you exceeded FBO and or wanted to use ethanol blends.

EBMs and many other turbo cars run pig rich from the factory for safety reasons. Leaning them out is usually what nets more power.

 

[TheLion]

EBMs and many other turbo cars run pig rich from the factory for safety reasons. Leaning them out is usually what nets more power.

That would be Ford's way of mitigating risk as much as they can. There's various types of risk associated with any change.

There's no doubt any of these tunes (what I refer to as PCM software) are pushing the engine harder as we are increasing power. Some methods however may result in more long term issues than others and add stressors in more critical areas.

None of the record setting tunes would be possible without raising boost pressure. At some point there's simply no more gains to be had without going that route. But there's a lot that can be gained over the factory PCM software simply by optimizing timing curves, AFR's and a slew of other complex tables used by the PCM and that's where LMS puts their focus (most likely also what Ford Performance does as well) which takes significant R&D resources.

It's tedious, but has some very substantial benefits. It's not going to set unbeatable records by itself (for that you need to dive much deeper than just PCM software, that takes built bottom ends, big turbos, race gas all combined with very well tuned software that's even so specific it's tuned to a particular day's ambient, humidity etc.), but it will make some excellent power without relying on eating up mechanical safety margins. They have some of the faster bolt on cars, but with OE like reliability. For a street car that's the name of the game, balancing performance without sacrificing drive ability.

They are fairly well known for their work with domestic super cars such as the Corvettes and Vipers etc.

That's not to say raising boost a bit will cause any immediate catastrophic failures, but you may see leakier rings down the road at 100k, or a head gasket go out at some point or maybe it will be just fine. We won't know til we see some of these over boosted cars hitting higher mileage. I can tell you though that when you combine that added stress with higher contamination from inadequate filtering, your decreasing the service life of the vehicle substantially, and also the performance as it ages.

That was my whole soap box I got on with this thread. It was to illustrate that oiled cotton filters are probably not the most optimal choice for street cars. The K&N for example dipped below 96% efficiency after 5 washes, even though it flowed great when clean. It let 12x the amount of dust through than the AEM dry flow. There is a direct correlation with exposure to dust / debris and ring / sleeve wear rates.

These engines are already operating under high pressure and stress, especially if tuned and modified. Wear on the rings and sleeves is going to be MORE important and the impacts amplified as the car ages over a naturally aspirated engine. Most of these EB's on this forum are street cars first and fore most. Some are weekend toys (aka it's a secondary car), so with those cases more risk can be afforded or some level of practicality /drive ability can be sacrificed due to less frequent use and in more ideal conditions.

There's options though that are better than running an oiled cotton filter 24/7 for a street car.

1. Run the oiled cotton filter only at the track, it's pretty easy to swap it out and run a paper or dry filter for every day use (your not gonna notice the 10 hp and the throttle response increase is marginal at best).

2. Use a more frequent maintenance interval so dust capacity is not exceeded as it's markedly lower than paper or dry filters (less than 1/2) to maintain high flow, but you will still have higher contamination exposure.

3. Just run a paper filter or dry filter all the time as the gain is fairly small unless your competing in bracket racing or trying to set a personal best.

4. Run the Ford Performance conical paper CAI. The larger conical paper filter should produce similar flow rates if not better flow rates to a drop in panel filter, but maintain a high level of filtration.

Also note that SVT found the drop in K&N's to decrease performance marginally on both a NA and Super Charged 2012 Coyote V8 mustang (S197).

Link is in one of the earlier posts. Depending on the method and particulars of your PCM software, some methods may see a decrease while others an increase. Any benefit would really have to be proven on the track (difficult, as human error can easily hide or mislead us to perceive a gain) or on a dyno (which is why SVT did).

Just be aware of these things and hopefully you can make a better decision and spare yourself a lot of grief and frustration down the road. There's also risk of oil contamination, I've had that issue even on brand new K&N's as they came from the factory in my wife's 08 focus, it was over oiled and got all over the MAF sensor, I was able to clean it with brake cleaner fortunately and have not had any issues since then (although brake cleaner is acidic, so it may have changed the properties of the thermistor a bit).

 

[5.0yote]

I bypass the warranty, by having a spare long block in my basement under wraps.... who cares about a warranty when your modding anyway lol =P

 

[Maggneto]

How does one explain this demonstration? I understand that not all OEM filters are equal and some may be more efficient than others. The Mustang OEM filter is almost cardboard material and while it has superior surface area it is still really thick paper. I have been running K&N since the 90's in every car and motorcycle and have owned and never had a problem with a clogged K&N. I put 100k on an Audi and a Porsche without ever cleaning the filters without issue. I am not saying your extensive research is incorrect but it is hard to deny a simple air test to see how much air is actually flowing thru each filter.

Air Filter / Compare K&N to Stock

 

[xXANCHORMONXx]

There is a reason why oem user paper air and oil filters, cost.

Look up the Porsche 918 and cars in that class, you'll see what they use since cost is not an issue.

 

[TheLion]

How does one explain this demonstration? I understand that not all OEM filters are equal and some may be more efficient than others. The Mustang OEM filter is almost cardboard material and while it has superior surface area it is still really thick paper. I have been running K&N since the 90's in every car and motorcycle and have owned and never had a problem with a clogged K&N. I put 100k on an Audi and a Porsche without ever cleaning the filters without issue. I am not saying your extensive research is incorrect but it is hard to deny a simple air test to see how much air is actually flowing thru each filter.

Air Filter / Compare K&N to Stock

If you look at the links earlier on, there is standardized testing which shows actual testing under controlled conditions for each of the filters. The testing shows what it shows regardless of the you tube video K&N uses to promote their filters.

They did not dirty that filter with a measured amount of contamination. We have no idea what envornment that filter was in or how dirty it actually was. Case in point, my Green Filter was HEAVILY saturated with large sand sized particles which clung to it, there was literally a layer of sand in the shape of the filter on my workbench.

Also the standardized testing showed that the K&N and other oiled cotton filters did flow better even when dirty. That's the not the issue. Their dusty capacity is, which was at best 1/2 of the standard OE paper or AEM dry filter. Once the K&N's got close to max, their restriction shot up exponentially where as the paper OE or AEM dry filters were far more gradual. At half their capacity they start to out flow the K&N's.

Also in the K&N video there using two fans which have very low CFM. Differences are amplified due to the already low pressure. If you had an air source pushing air through at the same rate as a 350 hp engine, the ball would be at the top of the tube with either filter even if there was a pressure drop difference. The video is some what misleading.

Take a look and read through Bob the Oil Guy's testing AND the links I posted at the start of this thread. They are standardized tests in controlled environments with quantifiable data, not marketing demonstrations.

 

[TheLion]

For any car which sees daily use, especially in a 4-seasons state, here is ANOTHER case for paper: http://blog.consumerpla.net/2011/03/k-and-n-high-flow-air-filters-test-1.html

Not sure why we would want to use a filter which flows great for 30% of the service interval but is more restrictive for the other 70%...consistency wins more races than short bouts of unrepeatable performance...

Again, I really think there's a lot of great evidence here as to why street cars would be far better off with OE paper or AEM Dry (basically a reusable OE paper filter as it's filtering efficiency is roughly on par, but it's about as restrictive too from testing I've seen). The value of the AEM stands in it's combination of re-usability (aka cost savings) in combination with OE like filtration without using oils which also risk contamination (an issue I had with factory new K&N's on both my 07 Focus ST and my wife's 08 SE).

Sponsored