Input on Forced Induction

[SpaceCityS550]

All posts on this will be based on opinion and bias, so here's mine...

When deciding between all the different FI offerings, I chose a wastegated Procharger. Since I am governed by fuel (no E85) and a stock motor, I didn't feel the need to go turbo as the other options can easily achieve the power goals I wanted. Most turbo systems reduce ground clearance (piping ran under frame) and either mount the turbos on the ground or in the hot engine bay. On a DD car, those options just weren't for me.

I liked the idea of a wastegated centri because I could get almost the same powerband as a PD, but on a system that runs generally cooler. I chose Procharger because I liked the mounting and layout over the other options.

This is exactly what I've been leaning towards lately. I too prefer the layout of the Procharger install vs the other Centri options and the fact that it generally runs cooler than the PD SC's.

Looking through your build log and the wastegate setup looks super clean, I think I may try and copy from what you've done with your build. Did you happen to have pics of the power curve, before and after the wastegate was added? I haven't finished digging through your thread to see if you posted that. More reading to do.

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[Andy13186]

Interesting article I found that compares the cooling system/methods of centri vs PD and some of the pro's and con's of air to air and air to water cooling, and the difference between IAT's from PD and centri :

http://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/intake_air_temp_tech.htm

Their summary/conclusion

"-Most PD blowers in most cases have lower discharge temps per psi than Centri blowers do.

-Water transfers heat 24x faster than air.

-The sensors used to measure IATs between PD and Centri blowers don’t behave the same so they can’t be compared.

-The sensor location between PD and Centri blowers is completely different in regards to latent heat so “on boost” IAT’s can’t be compared closely.

-The sensor location between PD and Centri blowers is completely different in regards to latent heat so cruising IAT’s can’t be compared at all.

-“Out of the box” Centri ICs are a lot closer to their limit (size) than what you get with a PD kits heat exchangers.

-“Out of the box,” a Centri’s cooling medium “air” is at its limit of speed/volume. PD kits aren’t anywhere close to their limits and can be increased.

One could, in a lot of cases make the statement that “Out of the box Centri blowers run cooler than out of the box PD blowers do.” But that’s not what I see out of the masses. There’s an assumption that Centri blowers run cooler because the Centri/A2A combination is technologically superior. And you get statements like “Centri blowers run cooler than PD blowers,” and it’s left at that. And that statement is incorrect because it suggests that, all things being equal, the Centri/A2A combo is superior to the PD/A2W combo. In this case, someone will make that blanket statement, and then a hundred people will repeat it later. Blanket statements are generally not a good idea. In this case, it’s a really bad idea. To compound the problem the “data” people are basing that blanket statement on is either wrong or there’s no data at all. Comparing IATs between Centri and PD blowers is nearly impossible because of the differences in how they sample temperatures.

I’m not arguing that Centri blowers are better than PD units or vice versa. I’m not even arguing that A2A systems are better/worse than A2W systems. Like most things, there are pluses and minuses, and, in some situations, some stuff works better than others. Ultimately, a A2W system will be able to cool better than an A2A system. But, when you start to factor in available space, complexity, cost, weight, boost levels, etc., you’ll find that, in some cases, an A2A system is the better choice even though it has a “performance disadvantage.”

What I’m doing is bitching about the irresponsible statements that people make based on…………in most cases……………………….zero facts. This being one of those cases. Bad information like “Centri blowers run cooler than PD blowers” as a blanket statement spreads like a virus. A virus that’s main symptom is spreading ignorance. I wrote this as my own little shot in the arm to combat that spread.

If you have any questions, shoot us an email at [email protected]

Thanks!"

 

[SpaceCityS550]

Interesting article comparing the cooling system/methods of centri vs PD and some of the pro's and con's of air to air and air to water cooling, and the difference between IAT's from PD and centri :

http://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/intake_air_temp_tech.htm

Their summary/conclusion

"-Most PD blowers in most cases have lower discharge temps per psi than Centri blowers do.

-Water transfers heat 24x faster than air.

-The sensors used to measure IATs between PD and Centri blowers don’t behave the same so they can’t be compared.

-The sensor location between PD and Centri blowers is completely different in regards to latent heat so “on boost” IAT’s can’t be compared closely.

-The sensor location between PD and Centri blowers is completely different in regards to latent heat so cruising IAT’s can’t be compared at all.

-“Out of the box” Centri ICs are a lot closer to their limit (size) than what you get with a PD kits heat exchangers.

-“Out of the box,” a Centri’s cooling medium “air” is at its limit of speed/volume. PD kits aren’t anywhere close to their limits and can be increased.

One could, in a lot of cases make the statement that “Out of the box Centri blowers run cooler than out of the box PD blowers do.” But that’s not what I see out of the masses. There’s an assumption that Centri blowers run cooler because the Centri/A2A combination is technologically superior. And you get statements like “Centri blowers run cooler than PD blowers,” and it’s left at that. And that statement is incorrect because it suggests that, all things being equal, the Centri/A2A combo is superior to the PD/A2W combo. In this case, someone will make that blanket statement, and then a hundred people will repeat it later. Blanket statements are generally not a good idea. In this case, it’s a really bad idea. To compound the problem the “data” people are basing that blanket statement on is either wrong or there’s no data at all. Comparing IATs between Centri and PD blowers is nearly impossible because of the differences in how they sample temperatures.

I’m not arguing that Centri blowers are better than PD units or vice versa. I’m not even arguing that A2A systems are better/worse than A2W systems. Like most things, there are pluses and minuses, and, in some situations, some stuff works better than others. Ultimately, a A2W system will be able to cool better than an A2A system. But, when you start to factor in available space, complexity, cost, weight, boost levels, etc., you’ll find that, in some cases, an A2A system is the better choice even though it has a “performance disadvantage.”

What I’m doing is bitching about the irresponsible statements that people make based on…………in most cases……………………….zero facts. This being one of those cases. Bad information like “Centri blowers run cooler than PD blowers” as a blanket statement spreads like a virus. A virus that’s main symptom is spreading ignorance. I wrote this as my own little shot in the arm to combat that spread.

If you have any questions, shoot us an email at [email protected]

Thanks!"

Hugely appreciate the time you took to summarize, educate, and link the article on the topic of IAT's when discussing different types of blowers & their respective cooling systems. I'll be reading through this piece and will try to avoid using blanket statements in the future.

 

[beefcake]

that article is like mcdonald's explaining why a burger with mac sauce is better than every other burger....

you can't go wrong with any power adder on these cars, you really can't. feel free to give me a ring and we can go over your wants / needs / goals and put something together that suits your needs

beef
855 tbr race

 

[SpaceCityS550]

that article is like mcdonald's explaining why a burger with mac sauce is better than every other burger....

you can't go wrong with any power adder on these cars, you really can't. feel free to give me a ring and we can go over your wants / needs / goals and put something together that suits your needs

beef
855 tbr race

Thanks, Terry. I've already made plans to order my FI option of choice from you when the time comes (should be happening in the near future!) I've been meaning to give you a ring as well to discuss the options.

 

[Black Dog]

Hellion Sleeper Kit. Nuff said.
https://www.hellionpowersystems.com...-mustang-gt-street-sleeper-twin-turbo-system/

 

[ahl395]

This is exactly what I've been leaning towards lately. I too prefer the layout of the Procharger install vs the other Centri options and the fact that it generally runs cooler than the PD SC's.

Looking through your build log and the wastegate setup looks super clean, I think I may try and copy from what you've done with your build. Did you happen to have pics of the power curve, before and after the wastegate was added? I haven't finished digging through your thread to see if you posted that. More reading to do.

Thanks! Everything is heavily detailed on there but if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

I never did a direct comparison dyno before/after the gate, but I did roughly compare my latest graph with a similar powered Whipple car. Curve was very close until about 4k and then they were nearly identical. Nothing scientific but just a comparison for fun to see if my theory when I chose the system was right. Since I dont drag the car under 3.5-4k is pretty unimportant as all highway pulls will start higher than that. Last dyno I did was 701whp but have since added more boost, meth, timing, RPM, and changed manifolds. Shooting for 800 next time.

That being said non-wastegated boost didnt start building much at all until almost 4k, and then was a gradual climb. The curve there would have been much different. With the gate your already several pounds into boost by 4k. This makes a huge difference on the street (and I'm sure on the dyno too). Power is now instantaneous instead of building up. Best thing I did for my car aside from the blower itself.

Hugely appreciate the time you took to summarize, educate, and link the article on the topic of IAT's when discussing different types of blowers & their respective cooling systems. I'll be reading through this piece and will try to avoid using blanket statements in the future.

Keep in mind that article is from a company that sells PD blowers (and only PD blowers) lol. Not saying there's no factual info there, but keep in mind it's heavily biased. I do own a centri so you could say I am too, but I had the choice to buy any system I wanted and chose this route. Terry sells all systems and is very helpful and knowledgeable so I would take his advice more. FWIW I have a "typical" fast acting IAT sensor like mentioned in that article and my IATs are still generally lower than most PDs. lol

 

[SpaceCityS550]

Hellion Sleeper Kit. Nuff said.
https://www.hellionpowersystems.com...-mustang-gt-street-sleeper-twin-turbo-system/

That's the exact system I had my heart set on initially. The only thing that stops me from pulling the trigger on that is the lack of information on dealing with emissions with the turbo setup. I know Hellion sells a catted setup, but I haven't found any information on actually getting the sensors to set correctly. Compared to the Procharger/Whipple I've found a few who seem to have been able to get things to set, with some even running green cats on LT's.

Looks like you're running the sleepers in Texas. Plans for emissions when the time comes?

 

[SpaceCityS550]

Thanks! Everything is heavily detailed on there but if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

I never did a direct comparison dyno before/after the gate, but I did roughly compare my latest graph with a similar powered Whipple car. Curve was very close until about 4k and then they were nearly identical. Nothing scientific but just a comparison for fun to see if my theory when I chose the system was right. Since I dont drag the car under 3.5-4k is pretty unimportant as all highway pulls will start higher than that. Last dyno I did was 701whp but have since added more boost, meth, timing, RPM, and changed manifolds. Shooting for 800 next time.

That being said non-wastegated boost didnt start building much at all until almost 4k, and then was a gradual climb. The curve there would have been much different. With the gate your already several pounds into boost by 4k. This makes a huge difference on the street (and I'm sure on the dyno too). Power is now instantaneous instead of building up. Best thing I did for my car aside from the blower itself.


Keep in mind that article is from a company that sells PD blowers (and only PD blowers) lol. Not saying there's no factual info there, but keep in mind it's heavily biased. I do own a centri so you could say I am too, but I had the choice to buy any system I wanted and chose this route. Terry sells all systems and is very helpful and knowledgeable so I would take his advice more. FWIW I have a "typical" fast acting IAT sensor like mentioned in that article and my IATs are still generally lower than most PDs. lol

Glad to hear how dramatic the difference was after installing the wastegate. Sounds very promising, and you can probably expect to see some PM's from me if I end up pulling the trigger on the Procharger.


Yeah, noticed that once I clicked on the actual link lol. At the end of the day, he's probably right about making sweeping blanket statements without considering the nuances between each system. I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers that will read and take things at face value. All good.

 

[Andy13186]

That being said non-wastegated boost didnt start building much at all until almost 4k, and then was a gradual climb. The curve there would have been much different. With the gate your already several pounds into boost by 4k. This makes a huge difference on the street (and I'm sure on the dyno too). Power is now instantaneous instead of building up. Best thing I did for my car aside from the blower itself.

FWIW I have a "typical" fast acting IAT sensor like mentioned in that article and my IATs are still generally lower than most PDs. lol

Those torque booster type wastegate setups for centris spin the blower faster and let off excess air with the wastegate and I think compressing that extra air and spinning the blower faster probably has a negative affect on IAT's and blower temps I would suspect.

If your sensor was located near the bottom of your intake manifold, the centri vs PD IAT's would be a fair comparison, but most centri kits have the sensor located in the piping before the intake manifold like the article says.

A guy with a torque booster setup on here blew his engine twice , possibly due to high IAT's ? : https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/how-does-this-keep-happening.113272/

This and the A2W intercooler setups of the whipple, the upgraded fuel rails that come with the whipple, and the sound of a whipple made me lean in that direction.

There are no factory centri supercharged cars as far as I know, but there are lots of TVS and turbo cars and I think that may be for some valid reasons. I definitely wouldnt mind having a polished centri though either, and I have seen some centri 18's post up amazing times. It definitely is a hard choice.

 

[ahl395]

Those torque booster type wastegate setups for centris spin the blower faster and let off excess air with the wastegate and I think compressing that extra air and spinning the blower faster probably has a negative affect on IAT's and blower temps I would suspect.

If your sensor was located near the bottom of your intake manifold, the centri vs PD IAT's would be a fair comparison, but most centri kits have the sensor located in the piping before the intake manifold like the article says.

A guy with a torque booster setup on here blew his engine twice , possibly due to high IAT's ? : https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/how-does-this-keep-happening.113272/

This and the A2W intercooler setups of the whipple, the upgraded fuel rails that come with the whipple, and the sound of a whipple made me lean in that direction.

There are no factory centri supercharged cars as far as I know, but there are lots of TVS and turbo cars and I think that may be for some valid reasons. I definitely wouldnt mind having a polished centri though either, and I have seen some centri 18's post up amazing times. It definitely is a hard choice.

Yes there are some disadvantages, however the pros far outweigh them. IATs will rise but nowhere near dangerous levels. My IATs pre-gate were ambient +20 at WOT, after gate was +40. Even on a 100F day, 140F IATs won't hurt your motor. Also most tunes will automatically pull timing past a certain IAT (regardless of the blower) to keep the motor safe.

My IAT is in the pipe, so I agree cant directly compare, but I was pointing out it is a dedicated IAT not using the MAF. This will affect cruise temps but at WOT it will be comparable. Some people have relocated the IAT to the manifold. Cant comment on what changes they saw though.

It was a hard choice for me too. I love the noises the Procharger makes but that whipple whine makes my nips hard too, I wish I could have both lol

 

[Rjames18]

LPF kit is the way to go. Had mine on for months now and no regrets!
With you being in Houston as well this is a big advantage to any other kit!
You have the shop in town with you. He also does his own tuning!
Any other thing you need done to the car as well he can get it done!

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