IAT'S with Whipple

Discussion in 'Forced Induction - 5.0L V8 Engine' started by JCSIX13, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Burkey

    Burkey Well-Known Member

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    I’m using the Velossa Tech bigmouth with the tuner style airbox/shroud. I did however take the time to make sure that the seal to the hood liner and other areas was as good as it can get.
    The way Whipple supplied it, it didn’t even touch the hood liner.
    See video
     
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  2. Ruiner46

    Ruiner46 Well-Known Member

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    Roh92cp, I appreciate all of the things you've done to research IAT and mods to improve it and I have followed along with all that you've done. However, I disagree with your statement above about the Whipple sensor data, and I think we've even had this discussion before.

    It is probably true and easily believable that the Whipple IAT2 is not accurate, and I'll explain why. However, it is not true at all that the data from the IAT2 PID is not real data, or inferred in any way from any other sensors. I have verified this on the OBD2 PID I use by unplugging the sensor and watching the PID data rail to a value instantly. It is obviously coming from the sensor I unplugged in the manifold. I have also experimented with IAT based timing retard and seen the timing changes I have made expressed when the temperature on that PID crossed the thresholds that I put in with HPTuners. I can say that the PID didn't exist in my torque app until some kind of update at some point, so maybe it was more recently discovered than when you talked to Dustin and Jason.

    Now, the real reason the Whipple sensor is inaccurate is because of the transfer function that they created in the tune. The function is not a smooth curve, and right around 135 or so, the curve makes some weird transitions, and it looks like it was flattened and supposed to read as higher temps in general. Most transfer functions I have seen are usually smooth curves, and this one appears to be manipulated. Perhaps Whipple did this for a reason. Here is the transfer function curve pulled from my 16 Whipple tune:

    MCT tfunc.PNG

    By comparison, here is the factory MAF IAT sensor transfer function:

    IAT tf.PNG

    It is also true that the PID is slow, but that does not in any way mean that the data used by the PCM is slow. Some PID's just have a slower sample rate. Temperature is usually slow to change, so most temperature PIDs don't sample very fast. All that being said, I trust your ZT sensor setup more than anything else, but the tune relies on the Whipple sensor data and the PCM uses the values that are the same as those seen on the PID.
     
  3. Roh92cp

    Roh92cp Well-Known Member

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    Dustin explained to me the PID assigned was not meant to be read out on an Ngauge or OBD2 scanner and display real accurate data, but maybe with HP Tuners you have different access, not sure about that. I can say that the data from the
    IAT2 PID (whipple sensor) as displayed on Ngauge and IATF PID with breakout harness also displayed from Ngauge are both lagging way behind by 10-15 degrees. It's not just a delay because I've watched them together climb for 15 minutes while idling and both are always lagging compared to the ZT-2 sensor.

    Here is a data log showing the difference between the breakout harness (iat2) and the more accurate ZT-2 data (user2v)

    log-1561603995
     
  4. Ruiner46

    Ruiner46 Well-Known Member

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    What I'm saying is that it's two things. Looking at your log, the PID for temperature updates about 5 times slower than your zt-2. On top of that, the transfer function curve is pushed down so the temperature readings are lower overall. With HPTuners, the IAT2 does log much faster than the OBD2 PID. However, I usually keep an eye on IAT2 while driving with my Android phone Torque App, and it gives me the same data as HPTuners, just with a slower sample rate.

    What I'm also saying is that what Dustin told you WAS true, but the OBD2 PID for Ford's IAT2 has been discovered and some apps can log it now. Whipple uses Ford's supercharger operating system for their tune, and that tune uses the same IAT2 sensor, and PID. I don't know anything about the Ngauge, so that might still be the wrong PID or something.
     
  5. Roh92cp

    Roh92cp Well-Known Member

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    Even when the temps are static the iatf PID always is lower so I don't think that just an update or lagging issue.
     
  6. Ruiner46

    Ruiner46 Well-Known Member

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    That's what I mean by saying the transfer function curve is pushed down. The temps always read a little lower than the actual temp because the transfer from volts to temp is wrong.

    The lagging update is different, the stair step pattern in your log shows when it updates. Every time it makes a step, that is a new sample. You can see in the log how much faster the custom PID for the ZT sensor is because the steps are closer together. Hence why I said there are two issues making it inaccurate. The transfer function from volts to temp, and the sample rate.
     
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  7. 17gt3black

    17gt3black Member

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  8. 17gt3black

    17gt3black Member

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    Running the PLX gauge and the mfp spacers along with the killer chiller here with both the drag valve and the 3 way way to give me option to still run it threw heat exchanger when it get colder out. that spacer and chiller night and day under ambient.
     
  9. hamzah596

    hamzah596 Well-Known Member

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    What kind of heat shield did you use?? I’m looking to do this
     
  10. Roh92cp

    Roh92cp Well-Known Member

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    The material I used is double bubble insulation sold in rolls. Alum tap is used with layers to make it semi ridged and gives the ability to form it as needed. I used that airbox for 3 years without any real determination.
     
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  11. moffetts

    moffetts Well-Known Member

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    The real mystery is how you got the airbox in there without destroying the wrap that covers the big hole in the side of the box, up next to the fender. It's extremely tight.
     
  12. Roh92cp

    Roh92cp Well-Known Member

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    It was bad for me once the inlet pipe was removed from the throttle body.
     
  13. Roh92cp

    Roh92cp Well-Known Member

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    It was bad for me once the inlet pipe was removed from the throttle body.
     
  14. Roh92cp

    Roh92cp Well-Known Member

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    It was bad for me once the inlet pipe was removed from the throttle body.
     
  15. Stymee

    Stymee Well-Known Member

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    Are these cooler IAT2 for street racing or 1/2 mile hits?

    I don't street race of hammer the car on the street very often so for me I’m not that concerned, now if I was drag racing at the track I’ ld just add an ice tank

    Problem solved, ice, run, drain, repeat or just add a killer chiller
     
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