I spun a bearing on new motor. I need help with how to proceed with a new short block?

[engineermike]

Your tuner, Lund, is telling you unless you are ok with less power don't do it.

Lund said if you lower the compression 2 numbers and make no other changes then you'll lose 50 hp. That's a pretty accurate statement. But Lund didn't mention that lowering compression 2 numbers also buys you a ton of knock margin, nor did he mention the possibilities that opens up.

You can try a pulley that is rated for more than 10PSI, but keeping that safe is on you and 93 might not always be up to doing that.

If he were to lower compression one number, then raise the boost to make the power back up, when the knock margin and safety is actually improved on any given octane, assuming he doesn't add more than about 3 psi.

When you lower your compression, and the tuner still has you at a now soft timing curve for a higher compression engine.

If the tuner uses the same borderline and MBT timing curves (and torque-to-load and load-to-torque tables, for that matter), then you have the wrong tuner. An actual calibrator would calibrate those tables for the compression ratio, which is the root of the problem with letting tuners design your combo. Tuning an engine with a different compression ratio means they can't sell you the rinse-and-repeat tune they've sold a thousand of before. It actually takes a lot of time, especially if done remotely, and most customers aren't willing to pay for that. But I think you already knew that.

Your exhaust will be hotter, therfore catalytic converters will run hotter and be at higher risk of melting. Just something to think about. Listen to your tuner.

It's true that lower compression increases EGT...well...technically the lower expansion ratio is what raises EGT. But another thing that raises EGT is retarded spark timing. Lots of supercharged gen3's are running 12-14 deg of spark timing, which causes high EGT as well. So what has a higher EGT...a 9.5/1 GT500 running 25 deg timing or a 12/1 Gen3 running 13 deg timing?

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[Basspro302]

I always forget every one is a tuning expert here.

 

[WildHorse]

low compression w/ high boost tells me the blower is highly inefficient. AKA : 60's/70's. No place in todays engines.

If he were to lower compression one number, then raise the boost to make the power back up, when the knock margin and safety is actually improved on any given octane, assuming he doesn't add more than about 3 psi.

High compression + boost always a win/win. This ain't the 70's anymore. There's also the advantage of lower IAT's, better VE when off the boost, etc.,etc.

 

[Angrey]

Mike, again, all that is ASSUMING quality fuel, which is a BAD assumption. Which is why tuners won't push a gasoline motor.

It's easy for us to criticize what tuners will and won't do. I've done it myself. But I do understand that they don't want the grief of complaining customers when stuff outside of their control (ie octane rating of pump gasoline) breaks something.

We're all discussing theories on what's possible in a very controlled environment. If only pump gasoline were that reliable.

 

[Angrey]

Where I get frustrated with tuners is when they won't follow instructions even though you've explained you understand the risks. I.e. we won't tune any blown car that doesn't have a fore style return system we're comfortable with. Or they won't take phone calls.

But I do understand their reluctance to push the envelope on pump gas. And it's part and parcel to what the OEM's are willing to do when they have to WARRANTY the car. Every vehicle that's fielded with a power adder leaves a lot of potential power on the table. For good reason. Fuel is suspect. Drivers are abusive.

 

[WildHorse]

I.e. we won't tune any blown car that doesn't have a fore style return system we're comfortable with.

Yep.. you don't need a 2000hp fuel system for a 750 hp car.

 

[noshine4mine]

Losing 50 on a 460HP engine likely wont be noticable on the street. You will probably see it on the time slips. Now that is NA. Throw in a turbo charger to the mix. Out of boost I am suffering from the power loss (this is relative as I am seldom WOT in town, and 400 HP is a shit load of HP in a production car) but then I get into boost and i'm not going to notice the difference in 700 as opposed to 750 (the thing is going to be rowdy either way). Throw in a super charger instead , boost is damn near instant... Where is the draw back? The answer is you will not get hero numbers on the dyno. Personally my ego doesn't factor in. I want to drive my car for a long time without major issues. I can't spend 5 to 10k every year or two to rebuild an engine. Most importantly I dont want to deal with the time and cost of merely removing the engine from the car.

Ford built the coyote as NA engine, they did not engineer it for boost. As stated before the car they did design for boost is 9.5 to 1 compression (GT500). No matter how you get to 700 WHP it is still 700 WHP. The arguement is do you get there with a delay (turbos) or do you get there virtual instantly (super charger). now that we are near the edge for a car not design for that power on 93 (talking stock engine), reliability becomes a real factor. Now you are in a whole new zone of issues outside of the engine. You push a stock 10speed to 800 WHP and you are on the edge. Start saving your money for a transmission rebuild because its coming.
No tuner gives a shit if you wanna push the limit. And they will not be liable if you pop the engine.

I am a real world example. My car detonated under boost on 93 and broke a ring land on the stock engine. I rebuilt it to 1500 WHP capable level. I didnt do it because I thought.... You know what this just isn't fast enough I should light 10k on fire. No I want to be able to drive the car I am paying for and since I already have the turbo kit I need to build accordingly. Buy once Cry once.

The advancement of the Engine manegement has made for some unbeleivable power in my lifetime. boosted and NA. It wasn't that long ago if you had a 400whp street car your shit was fast as fuck. Seeing a true street car (all the creature comforts) run a 9 second 1/4 was rarely seen and they had shit loads of money in it to get there. The fact we can bolt on a power adder and get in the low 10's with nothing more than the forced induction kit we choose and a tune is UN FUCKING REAL!!! We are living in some good times for powerful cars.


TLDR:

Its your car dude. Buy what makes you happy. No tuner can tell you what that is for you.
A boosted 3rd gen engine running on 93 is safer with lower compression, this is not debatable.

 

[Angrey]

Yep.. you don't need a 2000hp fuel system for a 750 hp car.

That and it's more "we're comfortable with this style setup and anyone else is a nope"

 

[WildHorse]

That and it's more "we're comfortable with this style setup and anyone else is a nope"

If you talking LUND.. seems to me it's borderline kickbacks.. or they just don't know how/unwilling to tune for fuel systems that can support 1000hp easily for a 1/3 of the price.

 

[SolarFlare]

Number of cars with non Fore systems I’ve seen in logs going lean, in some cases VERY lean- 6-8

number of logs I’ve seen of cars with Fore systems going lean- 0

I can’t imagine the numbers they see. Because at the end of the day if shit goes south all you see people saying online is “fuckin tune”

 

[Angrey]

Number of cars with non Fore systems I’ve seen in logs going lean, in some cases VERY lean- 6-8

number of logs I’ve seen of cars with Fore systems going lean- 0

I can’t imagine the numbers they see. Because at the end of the day if shit goes south all you see people saying online is “fuckin tune”

True, but the lund style system has it's drawbacks. On E85, if you're turning it into a limited trailer queen it's fine. If you want the ability to run more than 80 miles without filling up or knowing you get to drive like an old woman from that point to empty it's fine. I prefer more streetable/capable setup so the car can be flogged whenever I want and it's also not pumping mountains of heat into the fuel on long road trips. The lund setup works, for drag cars and limited street cars. It doesn't however replicate all the manners and capability of the OE setup/system. Naked pumps are not good outside of drag strip and 1/2 tank+ uses.

 

[Angrey]

True, but the Fore style system has it's drawbacks. On E85, if you're turning it into a limited trailer queen it's fine. If you want the ability to run more than 80 miles without filling up or knowing you get to drive like an old woman from that point to empty it's fine. I prefer more streetable/capable setup so the car can be flogged whenever I want and it's also not pumping mountains of heat into the fuel on long road trips. The Fore setup works, for drag cars and limited street cars. It doesn't however replicate all the manners and capability of the OE setup/system. Naked pumps are not good outside of drag strip and 1/2 tank+ uses.

Sorry, edited. meant Fore setup.

 

[K4fxd]

I always forget every one is a tuning expert here.

There are at least 2 real experts posting in this thread. I'm not one of them.

 

[K4fxd]

Spun rod bearings are usually an excessive RPM thing, and I have seen some evidence pointing at excessive timing like 4-5* over MBT, but less people will agree with me on the latter.

Back when I was competitively racing we spun many rod bearings. I also believe over advanced timing was a factor. 1970's/80's with mechanical distributors.

 

[Unas2k5]

Ok, I have a p1x and I do have a Fore Level 2 fuel system. I just needed help deciding IDC so much about a slight power loss but it would be a nightmare if I drive it outside of boost and it would lag and be slow lol (P1X kicks in at high rpm) I want as much "safe" horsepower on 93 and then I will run E85 if I want more power than that.

I think I will go with the Webster with the 10 compresion :

https://www.brenspeed.com/5lw-no-core.html

They did say that the FRPP short block is $1100 more. Not sure what that is? What's the difference?
Now I need to find a pulley that will give me 2-3 PSI to make up for some loss and have them dyne tune it on that. Brenspeed did say that Lund can remotely tune it form we on their dyno but I might just let them do it.
This repair bill im looking at is $15,000 includes clutch swap and 1450 to install my new fuel system.
It will have Boss valve springs and a cylinder head cooling kit with tube that's for cylinder 8 so it doesn't blow up again ,

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