GT350 vs. Z/28

[nametoshowothers]

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[SuperC]

Your Honor, in summation:

Ford takes a Base BOSS, tweaks the suspension further, drops some weight (rear seat) and adds some necessary chassis stiffening (X-brace - MUST have been necessary, or why would they add it?) AND ADDS R-COMPOUND RUBBER on 19" forged wheels, calls it the LS (a GM engine designation, coincidentally!), and the magazines LOVE it!!! It humbles the much-pricier M-3 (a car costing considerably more), and they rejoice in Dearborn (and most other North American cities-towns-villages)! All is right with the World!

Chevrolet takes a much heavier car, tweaks THEIR suspension and brakes and adds 19" forged wheels, adds some expensive expresso under the hood, deletes some poundage, AND ADDS R-COMPOUND RUBBER, names it after ITS heritage high-revver, and promptly humbles even greater performance NAMES (costing considerably more) with even greater performance NUMBERS, the magazines LOVE it...and the Dearborn dudes are ALL PIZZY about it!

"Chev CHEATS. Chev LIES. Chev PAID THEM OFF. Chev SHUT THEM UP."

Chev did EXACTLY what Ford did, only to a higher standard at a higher price point. That's ALL they did.

Let's face it. The fanboyism is at its EXTREME.

+1
I think it's funny becaue the guy is obviously obsessed and he doesn't even realize it. Most people can man up and admit defeat, a true nutjob can't do it even when the facts are right in his face.

 

[on d bit]

Who are the drivers in the manufacturer and magazine runs? Do either of them shut down the track for a clear lap?


Who were the drivers during both Z28 runs and the ZL1 run?

There is conflicting info on the zl1 driver. One says Mark Ruess who is the Executive VP for Global Product Development and certified industry pool test driver. Two sources say Aaron Link an engineer and factory test driver.
The z28 driver was Adam Dean Chasis Development Engineer and factory test driver.

Yes GM and Nissan times are on a closed race track.

The AutoSport Driver is Horst von Saurma. His fastest recorded lap is 7:24 in a GT2RS. I am assuming their lap times are from a clean(but not closed) course from factory stock vehicles.

 

[FATTBoss]

Camaro 1-2 @ St Pete in PWC GTS.

Great, now we'll have 26 more pages of complaining...:frusty:

 

[PowerUp]

I find it interesting that there is a large difference in times that Nissan and chevy put down at the ring compared to independent testing.
11 GTR 7:24 nissan, 7:34 Sport Auto - 10 sec difference.

The NISSAN time was immediately questioned because the car ran non-OEM tires.

09 ZR1 7:26 Chevy, 7:38 Sport Auto - 12 sec difference.

Conditions. Contact Sport Auto for a factual weather report vs. the more ideal conditions GM relied on.

Porsche shows a difference too but it is only about half the time. Of these three manu times which ones could be less than stock?
11 GT2RS 7:18 Porsche, 7:24 Sport Auto - 6 sec difference.

For a group who supposedly puts NO stock in 'Ring times, there sure seems to be a LOT of scrutiny about them, by whom, in what...but no in-depth scrutiny of what happened when those times were recorded, weather-wise. Which, as we ALL know, is pretty critical data, nein?

FOR SURE, GM and all others are going to release their optimal video-supported time. And, as we know, that isn't a situation (video ON) that happens every run and all the time.

But hey, "they're ONLY 'Ring times". No biggie.

 

[thePill]

I don't put stock in the Camaro's Ring time, but I have a good reason... Ring times may not be a good yard stick for comparison on US tracks where it matters. For example, the z28's last recorded run of 7:37 would likely be in the 7:30-7:32 company if top speed wasn't killing it. That 7:37 will be a 1:37-1:38 at say, Laguna Seca. But, since top speed was the main limiting factor, the z28 would be closer to 1:36 with little or no changes. It's sloppy logic but, I think you get me drift.

I just have difficulty trusting the control methods. Obviously, the stop watch thing was embarrassing. The cars that run there are caged as well while all tracks in the US can test with no cage. That's where even my sloppy logic starts to make more sense even for being sloppy. The Ring times have at least one major advantage, roll cages, full tilt honest to god roll cages. This would have a caged car running noticably better.

For example, a cage 2014 z28 runs a 7:37 at the Ring. Two limiting factors were top speed and a quick, slight rain (which Camaro tires are twice as prone to slippage than say a GT-R or 911 with 220tw's). However, removal of the cage itself will bring back chassis flex and suspension geometry changes.

Now, I'm sorry what you believe BUT, cages do add a huge amount of chassis rigidity. It's a different car altogether... Once you take that cage out, the same 2014 z28, on the same day, same conditions and the car may barely break the 8 minute mark. It would change dramatically in the corners which is where the z28 shined at the Ring.

Now, not only can a caged performance not be properly translated anywhere one wasn't used... but US track times cannot be translated back under the same circumstances.

Even if Team Camaro wasn't caught cheating, twice, by shaving lap times, that would be a concern of mine. A cage, depending on how complicated, will allow enough stiffness to tune the tires/suspension ect exactly how you want it for the run. Testing an OEM chassis on Nurburgring is more difficult because drivers usually want a cage at those speeds. A cage is NOT required to run the ring, everyone can run it in whatever they drive up there...

Long story short, besides running different years, different drivers and shaving lap times, the roll cage element speaks NOTHING for a car. We can see this is the versions of Boss 302's... They are basically tires and cages....

 

[GMAN6]

What thePill is trying to say is...z28 = turd

Who would pay 80,000 for a car with no A/c?

I think in future years, the term Z28 will replace the term lemon for people who got ripped by a poor car...lol

Maybe they will pass a z28 law....lol

There are many factors involved in going around a track fast but the two primary factors, aside from the driver, are power and grip (engine and tires).

Government Motors wants you to give them 80,000 dollars for a set of big wide sticky tires?......Really....lol

I would just by a GT500, put some sticky tires on it and casually cruise by them while they sit in their sweat....lol...

 

[thePill]

Wait, so you're saying a cage makes a 20+ second time improvement for the z28 at the ring?

Maybe not that severe but, a cage less CTS-V just barely broke the 8 minute mark with superior tires. The ZL1 had great suspension on bad tires... I'm sure the cage was a decent portion of that 18 seconds. I'm willing to bet both the ZL1 and z28 are more of a 7:50 car. We certainly can't compare US times and the competition. Once a cage is installed, everything else can be even further optimized. The suspension geometry no longer changes under load. Most of that change in geometry is from chassis flex. Considering the force the z28 displayed in the Motor Trend test, at 4000lbs, the changes would be great and therefor, un-tunable. It would be difficult to collect data with such inconsistencies. When heavy cars go fast and are supplied superior traction, that could be a large chunk of not only lap time but Ring time as well.

They haven't showed the inside of the actual 7:37 z28, not that I know of. Look at the complexity of the cage in the 7:41 ZL1. Somebody make a guess how many points it is. I don't know but I'd like to hear some guesses.

At this point who knows! Maybe the ZL1 run had a cage by Riley and the z28 used a lighter, more rigid Pratt version of the same cage. Wasn't that a tactic used in CTSC this year? Eficiency of cage designs could be partially responsible now. It's part of the car and has a purpose.

Another thing to consider, every car has a point of speed at every track where you enter diminishing returns... Perhaps ALL vehicles need caged right after the 7:50 mark at the Ring. If your car is defeating the tires and suspension, that is the cars maximum potential. That is a structural thing and each car is different.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, at the speeds the GT500, z28 or ZL1 lap Nurburgring, a full lap might not even be sustainable at those advertised times without a cage. That's just the kind of force the chassis is under.

 

[Stuntman]

I think you're putting too much of an emphasis on the cage.

 

[nametoshowothers]

I think you're putting too much of an emphasis on the cage.

Actually, i thought so too, except too many drivers that do this thing for real state otherwise. Asked the question of some drivers trying to get to Nascar from the minor leagues and they agree with the Pill on this one. If you search SVTP for cages, you will get Van from Revan weighing as well as others.

 

[on d bit]

For a group who supposedly puts NO stock in 'Ring times, there sure seems to be a LOT of scrutiny about them, by whom, in what...but no in-depth scrutiny of what happened when those times were recorded, weather-wise. Which, as we ALL know, is pretty critical data, nein?

FOR SURE, GM and all others are going to release their optimal video-supported time. And, as we know, that isn't a situation (video ON) that happens every run and all the time.

But hey, "they're ONLY 'Ring times". No biggie.

I put no stock into the cars being "stock" on the ring. As for putting stock into how the manufacturers who market ring times(ie. Nissan and GM) spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and spend hundreds of laps on the course to get the very best time they can get, yes these times are fairly accurate for what their modified car can do.

As far as times stock off the showroom floor, AutoSport or other third party times are much more believable to me.

 

[Jim968]

Now, I'm sorry what you believe BUT, cages do add a huge amount of chassis rigidity. It's a different car altogether... Once you take that cage out, the same 2014 z28, on the same day, same conditions and the car may barely break the 8 minute mark. It would change dramatically in the corners which is where the z28 shined at the Ring.

Why don't I see any cage elements on the in-car video from the 7:37 Nurburgring run? Do you have any pictures or details showing what cage, if any, was run at the Ring?

 

[thePill]

I think you're putting too much of an emphasis on the cage.

No, the problem is most people don't understand the benefits of a cage. I couldn't tell you how much the 5th Gen benefits without a Torsion Rigidity table. I can honestly say, depending on the build, most OEM cars can triple their stock platform numbers with a simple 8 point. Once cages are introduced, it's a total different car.

I suggest taking a Motorsport Chassis Fabrication and Engineering course. You will see how much your statement is incorrect.

 

[thePill]

Why don't I see any cage elements on the in-car video from the 7:37 Nurburgring run? Do you have any pictures or details showing what cage, if any, was run at the Ring?

There is no cage visibly present in any Ring videos Jim, look at the ZL1's run then go back and look at the actual car. It is FULL of tubing...

The z28 they used was never photograph on the inside that I know of. The car just sorta disappeared.

I can tell you what I did see in the video though, Team Camaro not keeping an accurate lap time... They need to fix that before they move on.

I don't trust Team Camaro's methods for keeping time, nor can I use a caged vehicles time to understand what the car is capable of.

 

[JoeDogInKC]

I'm running out of Popcorn, brb!

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