GT350 vs. Z/28

[PowerUp]

I think the "we never launched it" is being taken a bit out of context. The car was clearly optimized and tuned for a road course, and therefore a standing start is of less importance (most series perform a rolling start and for HPDEs you do a rolling start from pit lane). I'm sure they did some standing starts, and I'm guessing that statement is meant to indicate that they were not focused AT ALL on the straight-line, drag strip, performance. Clearly the car can handle the power as the ZL1 makes much more than the Z28. So, I'd say your criticism of this statement is a reach.

As far as your hang-up regarding "sanctioned and non-compliant in motorsport"....What car is? Every car that is going to do more than HPDEs will need at least a roll cage and likely a fuel cell and fire suppression systems. A 911, which is one of the most prevalent "OEM" cars in various series will need significant changes to be raced. Nobody is buying a street car and taking to a competitive race without making some changes. Clearly the Z28 is focused to people doing track days and possibly NASA-type wheel-to-wheel events for fun, where there are no rules. Hell, even a Spec Miata is going to have significant "updates" over a stock street car if you want to be competitive. I just don't get where you are coming from on this.

From my perspective as an HPDE enthusiast, the Camaro is almost the perfect car. It has a great engine, great brakes, and great shocks. The brakes will be extremely robust and will last much longer than a cast iron setup (but will be more expensive when they finally need to be replaced). The shocks seem to provide excellent control on the track as well as a reasonable ride on the street. The engine is very capable and should be reliable (if GM has taken care of the valve guide issues). Most of the mechanicals are based off a relatively inexpensive car, and should therefore be cheap to repair or replace (things like power steering pumps, wheel bearings, differential components, etc.).

The only downsides in my mind are the inital cost, the weight, and the horrible fuel economy. The biggest competition I see would be a C7 Vette with aftermarket brakes and an R-compound tire (which is probably what I would get with that kind of money).

-T

STOP THE INSANITY!!!

The man is creating a career endlessly bleating these same tired lines, page-after-page-after-page. Over 1,000 posts castigating Chevrolet, GM and Camaro. Do you think you can just waltz in here and, in two simple, objective, clearly-stated posts, put an END TO THIS?! REALLY?!

Just watch...

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[on d bit]

3.) The GT500's time is listed here (also a lazy list): http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html So I guess its all in which list you choose. The only Camaros that I've seen low on any ring list are the Z28 and ZL1.

I find it interesting that there is a large difference in times that Nissan and chevy put down at the ring compared to independent testing.
11 GTR 7:24 nissan, 7:34 Sport Auto - 10 sec difference.
09 ZR1 7:26 Chevy, 7:38 Sport Auto - 12 sec difference.
Porsche shows a difference too but it is only about half the time. Of these three manu times which ones could be less than stock?
11 GT2RS 7:18 Porsche, 7:24 Sport Auto - 6 sec difference.

How does Chevy run laps during the dry and cool and not run a time faster than their ZL1 time only to come back months later with a slightly wet track and run a time that is 3 sec faster than the ZL1?
Chevy ran the this 7:37 time with a spoiler that is not factory stock. If they run the time with a visible non stock component what else on the car is not stock?:frusty:

 

[on d bit]

To sum up this mess of a conversation today, MT ran 3 cars 991/GTR/Z28. When they did not get the results from the Z28 they wanted they changed air pressure to reduce laps times.

Did MT vary the air pressure in both the 991 and GTR to verify that they indeed have the best times in both of those vehicles as well?

Should we even mention the difference of 14 seconds between the two factory times at the ring(GTR 7:24, Z28 7:38)? MT says the Z28 is faster it must be faster!:gossip:

 

[Trackaholic]

STOP THE INSANITY!!!

The man is creating a career endlessly bleating these same tired lines, page-after-page-after-page. Over 1,000 posts castigating Chevrolet, GM and Camaro. Do you think you can just waltz in here and, in two simple, objective, clearly-stated posts, put an END TO THIS?! REALLY?!

Just watch...

Well, I do like the waltz.....

-T

 

[thePill]

@Track

My main issue was homologation in the former Grand Am. While other manufacturers had to comply or go bye bye, the Camaro seems to get its way. Marketing from that also upsets me. Once we looked at the standard equipment, it seemed the "heritage" had evolved. While it evolved, it did so without the limitations it's class competition did, the Rulebook. I love to watch Pro racing, especially factory racing, it gives us something to look up to. The class was sooooo close to be honest again, it just isn't.

On the amateur side, most believed they would just register and win, I harped on that because Camaro fans had very high, competitive aspirations. Like "I'm selling the car I have now". Why mislead people, they went from "race" to "track" and that was the end of the Z/28 legend. This car is something else, something bad... I mean, it's a bad direction for the American sports coupe market.

...and most of those guys feeding people this garbage on Camaro5 have no intentions on buying one. It's more of a personal victory for them, like this Powerup guy... He's been waiting at his computer for nearly 4 years for this...

I do agree with the track prep, there are some changes that need made. I'm in Motorsport Chassis... I wouldn't encourage anyone to buy an $80,000 and put a cage in it. That is something most don't think about... Along with removing all the key components that make the car $80,000 anyway. It's a fantastic exercise in engineering but I'm just not a single lap kinda guy, nor do I like playing with myself for too long. There is no room for progression here for Pro money and almost Pro speed.... With that in mind, you need a legal option for that price... It's just not there.

To me, it belongs in the American "Super Tourer" class cars with the GT500 and ZL1. They both do something right but are not really for anything other than track days and having THE Mustang or Camaro. The z28 just pissed on the ZL1, a lot of people were fooled into that "best road handling Camaro" line and the only real road focused car sucked in real life.

I personally knew the 5th Gen was awful long before Motor Trend admitted it last week. Everyone swore I had gone crazy. It sucked... I moved on... At that price, $35,000, we would have had room to work. Not at $77,000 and not considering we need to remove that hardware.

...I know I hurt feelings, that's just too bad. But ask yourself, if I never said a single word, would people on Camaro5 changed their tone? They were completely unaware of the rulebooks. I can't control the angry people this fact attracts because, it is a fact and it obviously bothers some people... It bothered Al O. on Wide Open Throttle so, it is a concern.

As for the tire pressure sh!t, to be honest, Motor Trend would have made adjustments until the z28 tied or beat the cars they brought. That's just the business they are in... Most of this is just a set up for the GT350 vs. z28 issues coming next season. It will sell... I can't help to feel that they are just setting the z28 up to be dethroned later this year. When that comparison does happen, IF the GT350 remains sanctioned and compliant, I want that fact to be known. Ford has class aspirations in Motorsports, PRO Motorsport where the z28 is just an exercise in engineering, tire engineering mostly... It will make a HUGE differance to me then.

Let them do what they need to do to win now, I just think another GT500 level of jaw dropping is inbound for probably much less than $77,000, much lighter than 4000lbs and, possibly usable like the Cobra R was back then and still raced today. The Boss 302 and Laguna are still highly active as well. If they want limitless, the GT500 is the Mustang to wait for... It won't do 12.7 in the 1/4 mile and still be a one lap wonder for magazine test... still less than the z28.

The 2000 Cobra was $55,000 but Ford went through hell to remove the R license requirement for homologation. They had it sanctioned in every single class it was eligible for, which was, and still is a lot. See my grief, that was a track car for the street. That was expensive but at least you had options.

I can't stand the 30 degree vs. 62 degree temp comparisons. Or running the z28 on a dry track, twice after adjustments were made.

They bitched about the rain at Nurburgring but if the GT-R and 911 run in the wet, it's no big deal.

 

[Gman11Gt]

RWD vs AWD, its at a handicap to those cars right off the bat for rain conditions. The Z28 tires aren't designed to be optimal in those conditions either.

It sets up for a true RWD battle with the GT350. I just hope it is a drivers car and offers more performance for the buck then the Z. You can shelve the expensive brakes and tires, since its pretty much outlawed in every sanctioned class...~ just give me a all around car I can live with. Looks being subjective, on that alone, the S5550 wins hands down.

 

[garagelogic]

STOP THE INSANITY!!!

The man is creating a career endlessly bleating these same tired lines, page-after-page-after-page. Over 1,000 posts castigating Chevrolet, GM and Camaro. Do you think you can just waltz in here and, in two simple, objective, clearly-stated posts, put an END TO THIS?! REALLY?!

Just watch...

Awww...is the GM fanboy upset because somebody is dogging on his favorite brand. Too bad. Suck it up buttercup! Maybe you should slink back over to C5 and refill your cup with Koolaid.

 

[on d bit]

I actually remember reading that. Between that and the test where they set the pressures off of the door sills, MT's test times are probably a bit conservative for all of the cars they test -by varying amounts.


Time of day, year, weather, track conditions, driver, traffic, etc...

It can be sunny, raining, and snowing on different parts of the track all at the same time. The track is that big. Also for a normal length track, track conditions can easily vary by a few seconds. Nordschliefe is 4-5X the length of most tracks so that 2-3 second variance due to temperature can easily be 8-15 seconds at Nordschliefe.

Nurburgring times are entertaining but hardly objective or definitive. Just what a specific car could do that specific lap. Does not mean the car couldn't go faster under different conditions.

What was I thinking? You are right. It's just coincidence that certain manufactures are always 10+ secs faster than independent testing and others are less than half that difference.

Speaking of track conditions, how did GM pull a better time with the z28 in worse conditions/weather than they did in the better conditions where they could not pull a time faster than the zl1?

 

[PowerUp]

Your Honor, in summation:

Ford takes a Base BOSS, tweaks the suspension further, drops some weight (rear seat) and adds some necessary chassis stiffening (X-brace - MUST have been necessary, or why would they add it?) AND ADDS R-COMPOUND RUBBER on 19" forged wheels, calls it the LS (a GM engine designation, coincidentally!), and the magazines LOVE it!!! It humbles the much-pricier M-3 (a car costing considerably more), and they rejoice in Dearborn (and most other North American cities-towns-villages)! All is right with the World!

Chevrolet takes a much heavier car, tweaks THEIR suspension and brakes and adds 19" forged wheels, adds some expensive expresso under the hood, deletes some poundage, AND ADDS R-COMPOUND RUBBER, names it after ITS heritage high-revver, and promptly humbles even greater performance NAMES (costing considerably more) with even greater performance NUMBERS, the magazines LOVE it...and the Dearborn dudes are ALL PIZZY about it!

"Chev CHEATS. Chev LIES. Chev PAID THEM OFF. Chev SHUT THEM UP."

Chev did EXACTLY what Ford did, only to a higher standard at a higher price point. That's ALL they did.

Let's face it. The fanboyism is at its EXTREME.

 

[nametoshowothers]

Let's face it. The fanboyism is at its EXTREME.

Need a mirror or is it obvious even to you

 

[SUPRDUDE7]

The "GT350 vs. Z/28" topic on here is getting annoying. Stop measuring each others camshafts and move along. The proof will be on the track when the new GT350 comes out.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 

[on d bit]

Your Honor, in summation:

Chevrolet takes a much heavier car, tweaks THEIR suspension and brakes and adds 19" forged wheels, adds some expensive expresso under the hood, deletes some poundage, AND ADDS R-COMPOUND RUBBER, names it after ITS heritage high-revver, and promptly humbles even greater performance NAMES (costing considerably more) with even greater performance NUMBERS, the magazines LOVE it...and the Dearborn dudes are ALL PIZZY about it!

I'm still trying to figure out how exactly GM humbled the competition? Their z28 could not even outpace the zl1 on the ring not to mention the GTR which is running more than 15 secs faster!

 

[thePill]

I'm hoping for a Z06/Z07 run but I think they are trying to use the "Out of Production" reasoning.

I'm waiting for a competitive 5th Gen Camaro. They just do not have anything in their inventory that's gonna be eye to eye with the Boss. Chevy wanted Championships, they failed... I'm very upset the about the GS/R and Z/28.R in CTSC. I was hoping this would have been the last year for the fat kids.

The weight has gotta come down....

Edit: Didn't the Camaro get caught cheating at Nurburgring? I still haven't heard an explanation for that. They just sorta stopped talking about it. Maybe we should ask Travis if we can post his findings over here. They initially couldn't beat the ZL1's time, they were there for two weeks. Nothing... They had to stop the stopwatch early to get that 7:37, that was the last run on the last day. That's kinda brash, and they serve that to you and you worship it. Then they get caught cheating and you curl into a ball. That was an "official" run right? Why are you stopping the stopwatch a 1/2 second early? What if the Mustang got caught doing that?

Maybe Team Camaro needs stop watch lessons.

Tire pressure? It's nice to have that option but, you adjust one, you need to go back and adjust the others. If the manufacture suggestion isn't optimal, oh well. I remember Evan Smith taking heat for reporting on numbers he had lowered the pressure. He says when he drops the pressure, in the articles I've read.

Testing in different conditions is pretty lame too. Initially, the GT-R and 911 were faster than the z28 in the cold/wet. It wasn't until the z28 got another run did it beat them. It was a second behind... But get some rain on a Camaro lap and it knocks 15 seconds off their lap time. That's okay, as long as it sets the z28 up for disaster later on.

If you could remove the brakes, tires and about $15,000, it would be a bargin. However, it would be slightly faster than a 1LE. That's was just not enough speed. Not for the Boss 302 when weight becomes an issue. They didn't have a real Boss fighter, without that, the heritage is gone. So, evolve into something else... It's just not a good competitive option, and that is very, very sad.

 

[thePill]

THINGS YOU NEVER SAY TO THE MEDIA EVER:

I don't know, we never launched it

That's like saying, "We've never tested it"

Now that's Canadian, Hill-Billy engineering!

There was a big inconsistency in the braking department. According to C&D, the GT500 and z28 brake about the same in their Florida test. R&T has a 115ft 60 to 0 time too... That is VERY, VERY poor. MT's 94 or 91 is the best I have ever seen... That is a lot of power to slow down 4000lbs.

 

[thePill]

Man!!! Looking good for just a horse delete. I love the new GT. At Pittsburgh, Ford set out the Mustang right in from of the Camaro display. The Mustang looks 40% smaller than the 5th Gen Camaro. If your looking over the Camaro at the Mustang, it looks 1/2 the size. My Mustang is probably 25% larger in mass than the 2015. It is just a really athletic looking 2013 GT500. The GT is pretty aggressive, I'm glad they didn't go over board yet.

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