GT350 vs. Z/28

[Stuntman]

Which GTR is as fast as a 302S racecar?

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[FATTBoss]

I agree with most of what you are saying except for the 15" six-pot Brembos being inadequate for the GT500. Those issues were detail oriented and not due to hardware design issues. A brake pad swap would have eliminated the problems the magazines reported.

Maybe. I run my street Boss with Motul 600, LS brake ducts, and Carbotech pads and have had numerous issues with fade. In some extreme cases I have had complete failure. Even the Grand Am guys have had issues with the 6 pot set-up at 3350 pounds, about 500 less than the GT500 street car.

As for T1 or T2, fine run the GT with 15" 6 pot set-up. Building your production car just to make it competitive in SCCA is a losing proposition. I run a track on the east coast, I deal with SCCA and NASA each year. SCCA is seeing fewer participants each race, and I can count the number of T1 and T2 cars on one hand at any given event, including the "Majors".

Look around any forum and see how many track their car. Not many. Most forums are populated with drag racers who care little about brakes. The average consumer will never do either drag or track driving.

Is it cool that I can say my Boss 302 is as close as you can get to the Continental Tire Challenge car? Yup. But in the end it don't mean squat. Mustang was competitive in that class, and many others, and the car raced had little if anything to do with the street version. The GT class cars have even LESS to do with the street cars. Rules are bent, broken, manipulated anyway the sanctioning body sees fit for the sake of "parity".

The Camaro is a tube frame car, the Mazda was half tube half tub car with a 3 or 4 rotor engine. Only the Porsche had any real semblance to the street car.

Screw the rules, build the best car you can build, and then let the SCCA or NASA or FIA or IMSA figure out where best to fit it.

 

[Grimace427]

Maybe. I run my street Boss with Motul 600, LS brake ducts, and Carbotech pads and have had numerous issues with fade. In some extreme cases I have had complete failure. Even the Grand Am guys have had issues with the 6 pot set-up at 3350 pounds, about 500 less than the GT500 street car..

I should have mentioned I was going off of Revan Racing and what they did with their '13-14 GT500 when they called out(or were called out by) Torq with their ZL1 at the track(Texas Motor Speedway IIRC). They ran back to back 20-25 minute sessions with zero brake issues.

 

[thePill]

Continental Boss 302R1's use the base 12.9 inch front rotors from the OEM GT and GT500 rears.

Anyway... Stunt, it was leaked that the Mustang GTR (Track Pack) was faster than the Boss 302 Laguna Seca. Further input said with race rubber, it was faster than the catalog Boss 302S. It was also caught benchmarking the 302S. This is the primary performance marketing angle they will take. The GT and GTR (not Track Pack please) are faster than the Boss... Sell, sell, sell. That's between 1:36 and 1:39 at Laguna Seca for reference. Race rubber will NOT be an OEM option. They were merely used to match the 302S's tires.

Are you more comfortable with a Track Package besting the legendary Boss 302 or would you at least like to give it a fitting name, that is similar to the out going 302S?

 

[thePill]

Correction:

Brian Cotter of Ford Motor Company says the STANDARD GT is FASTER than the 2014 Boss 302 Laguna Seca. This would put a "Track Package" (lol) Mustang GTR farther ahead. On race rubber, who knows.

A 1:39 flat at Mazda Raceway in a Base GT is awesome. Now, I ask you, if a Mustang GT can throw down laps like that, why wouldn't they name the package. I actually wouldn't mind a race tire option from Ford Racing at participating dealers... Those that sell a special Mustang GTR would be happy to do so.

Especially once people see a possible GT350R. The naming scheme will click with buyers. There will be no confusion on the pecking order and the "R" becomes more of a warning.

I think we all know what KR means? An FI V8 has no business racing. So, we will see those Carbon Ceramics and other one of a kind stuff. The Road is where the GT500 belongs. Not stripped down.

 

[Stuntman]

I remember reading that the track package was faster than a Boss 302 on track but I don't recall reading that they said it was faster than a Laguna seca. Can you post a link? I doubt the s550 track package is faster than a 302S on race rubber due to the splitter, huge wing, vented carbon race hood and the fact it runs on race gas and has no cats (for whatever that's worth over the OEM 302's 444hp rating)

Sorry I keep getting lost with your GTR nomenclature for the S550s optional performance package and the s197 GTR that you posted pics of.

The Continental Mustang runs a 14" racing rotor and stock GT rear brakes or 15" rotors with 13" rear GT500 rotors with a 50lb weight penalty. At least that's what the rules say.

Edit: impressive the base gt is faster than a LS. Link?

Isn't there official information where the bigger splitter and brakes for both the 5.0 & 2.3EB was called "Performance Package" and not track pack or GTR?

 

[thePill]

http://m.leftlanenews.com/14-mustang-gt-to-outrun-old-boss-302-laguna-seca.html

Come on guy... I don't mind questions or debate but, I'm on an iPhone. Let's do some work before we come in here.

 

[thePill]

I remember reading that the track package was faster than a Boss 302 on track but I don't recall reading that they said it was faster than a Laguna seca. Can you post a link? I doubt the s550 track package is faster than a 302S on race rubber due to the splitter, huge wing, vented carbon race hood and the fact it runs on race gas and has no cats (for whatever that's worth over the OEM 302's 444hp rating)

Sorry I keep getting lost with your GTR nomenclature for the S550s optional performance package and the s197 GTR that you posted pics of.

The Continental Mustang runs a 14" racing rotor and stock GT rear brakes or 15" rotors with 13" rear GT500 rotors with a 50lb weight penalty. At least that's what the rules say.

Edit: impressive the base gt is faster than a LS. Link?

Isn't there official information where the bigger splitter and brakes for both the 5.0 & 2.3EB was called "Performance Package" and not track pack or GTR?

No, a 14 or 15 inch rotor will not clear the BBK 18's. I don't even think an offset will clear the calipers. I think maximum size is 13 inches... Camaro uses the V6 OEM brakes. They are forced to use the same 18x10 BBK because they are a sponsor.

See if they are made to wear a 19x10 now.

 

[thePill]

Nevermind, it's allowed because it is standard equipment BUT physically impossible in 18x10 BBK. That sucks if true... 19's are prohibited.

 

[thePill]

Come on man, I'm on a cell phone typing from memory. I didn't think the big brakes would clear the BBK's. I think that they use the wheel still... Brembo's won't clear them, maybe that was our issue.

The article you posted is a piggy back from the event. The source I posted specifically says "Standard" GT. That's pretty fast...

 

[Stuntman]

Come on man, I'm on a cell phone typing from memory. I didn't think the big brakes would clear the BBK's. I think that they use the wheel still... Brembo's won't clear them, maybe that was our issue.

The article you posted is a piggy back from the event. The source I posted specially says "Standard" GT. That's pretty fast...

Same here. Do you mean BBS wheels? BBK typically is the acronym for Big Brake Kit, too many acronyms to get lost in. The 302R &S came with 14" rotors and BBS wheels and they're still being used with the 15" rotors since they were approved.

And the link I posted specifically said "GT with the track pack", so the journalist who wrote your article might have missed that detail or we could chalk it all up to interpretation of vague unofficial information from Ford.

 

[thePill]

Same here. Do you mean BBS wheels? BBK typically is the acronym for Big Brake Kit, too many acronyms to get lost in. The 302R &S came with 14" rotors and BBS wheels and they're still being used with the 15" rotors since they were approved.

And the link I posted specifically said "GT with the track pack", so the journalist who wrote your article might have missed that detail or we could chalk it all up to interpretation of vague unofficial information from Ford.

Lol, BBS... I can't check anything from here.

It's possible they are mixed up, I personally don't think any of that info should have been slipped. The GT's are fast either way...

 

[thePill]

I think Ford over shot their performance mark. It was just a tad too much... In it's maiden season, it had 12 wins, a Championship and a Manufacturers Record in the SCCA (Tied with PJ's '70 Boss, most wins by a single model in a season). This earned some big restrictions mid'11 in GS and a bad early '12 in the SCCA.

The new GT's need to contend with that now on maybe a dozen different spec's. It is MAXED OUT according to magazine equipment reports (Hot Rod). The GT350 has a few new roles to fill... Serious roles now, possibly beside the C7. It's a HALO class in GT.

Need to spread the GT around... There could be a GTR in Conti and a GTS in GTS. S means "Spec" as did the 302S.

If I had to, I would market the GTR to fill homologation requirements. GTS could be the catalog car.

 

[Grimace427]

Who is Brian Cotter in Ford's echelon? In every interview with Dave Pericak where he compares the new car to the S197 he says it will beat the Boss 302 and nothing about the LS or the racecar. I don't want to overestimate this car and overhype it before it hits the street/track. The track pack car will be impressive no doubt, but Ford has a nasty history of making dumb decisions(IMO) and severely handicap the Mustang with tires, shocks/struts, so on.

 

[thePill]

Brian is the Global Communications Coordinator... Media Press Releases and Global Marketing Strategies. The info released was probably a mass media briefing with a press packet. I'm not 100% sure but, I don't think that was intentional. There are other sources quoting him on a "Standard GT". I missed Dave's comments on the GT vs. Boss, I always thought Brian's statement was the only slip.

It appears that the media is about 2-3 months ahead of what the public knows... They possibly may already have the initial reports done, even with Ford's official photo's of the GT350.

Ford absolutely needs a GT350R, at the very minimum at the competitive level. Although, that would force Ford to offer at least 500 OEM cars.

Anyway...

Back to the GT350...

I hear the hood of the GT350 is something special. I don't think there has been a render close to what they are producing. I don't know for sure but, the GT350 may not have a hood scoop at all. It may actually be closer to the Boss 302S's heat extractors. I would appreciate a nice heat extractor setup like that on a GT350. Maybe raise the center up an inch or so.

On the Camaro side...

I still need to confirm this but, it looks like the 1LE could be done in T2. At least the Chevy backed 1LE... It was a black and gold, #33 driven by Todd Nap. The 1LE was cleverly painted to match Smokey Yunick's '68 Camaro. Although, the 5th Gen reserved Smokey's lucky #13 and went with #33 instead. A very classy move by Chevy and the Team.

If you guys see the #33 in SCCA T2 this year or hear otherwise, please let me know.

I thought the Smokey tribute was cool. However, this is the exact 1LE that was raped by 7 GT's over the last two seasons. The 1LE has dropped out mid-season for two seasons straight. This should have been the z28's honor though...

They are going to need a bigger, badder z28 in 2015. I also don't see the next generation Camaro to be shown until September 29th, 2016, available Spring '17. With sales the way they are, I'm not sure they can hold out until the Camaro's birthday.

The z28 is not in Tudor GT as of now, with the LS7, again, there are going to be issues. I can't totally count a Continental Tire GS GT350 out, so far, that's the only place these two would meet. The Z/28.R is far from OEM, even further than the Camaro GS.R...and now with greater restrictions. The '15 GT is poised to challenge the Z/28 in GS, it's using the best equipment that racing allows.

It would earn Ford some huge respect if they could make the GT350 an honest Tudor GT class competitor. The equipment that could possibly be found on a GT350 is more accepted in that class. Larger brakes, tires, lower minimum weight and hopefully less restrictions since it will be an underdog.

Does anyone think there will actually be a Carbon Ceramic Brake option? For those that want them, I say offer it. That said... I DO NOT want Ford to label a CC brake equipped GT350 an R. If anything, the R cars should remain in the spirit of the Boss 302 Laguna Seca. Weight reduction and de-contenting. I think we should have a Vote to SAVE THE SEATS... If the rear seat delete wasn't favorable...

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