GT350 vs. Z/28

[Grimace427]

I can't get on board with an official GTR label as that has been so unbelievably overused in the import crowd. The GT350R fits nicely as it was used on the original Shelby racecars and as the name of an option package, I think Track Pack sounds fine as it is. The biggest hope for me is that Ford looked at every angle and eliminated all the handicapps the S197 Track Pack had(rubber LCA bushings, undersized tires, wrong brake pads/fluid/lines, 4x4 ride height, etc).

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[thePill]

I never liked Track Pack, Performance Pack or SVT Package... I was ready for an R model 10 years ago. It just so happens that adding an R to the GT makes GTR. The Mustang has been a GT since 1964, anything V8 concerned should build on that... GTR, GT350, GT500... The GT itself is overused only because it's a popular racing class.

The 2005 Mustang GTR had more in common with the 2011 Mustang GT.R in Grand Am than the MARC VDS Mustang in FIA GT3. The Mustang did run in GT3... for a few seasons.

Leave the packages at home, bring back the "R".

 

[Grimace427]

GTR will forever be associated with Nissan, GT has always be associated with the Mustang. I don't think that should change.

 

[FATTBoss]

I too dislike the "GTR" and prefer "Track Pack" or other such naming. I think whatever they do, there will be a track pack GT, and a higher tier GT-350. They did it with the Boss and S-197 Track Pack GT, so there is room in the lineup for both.

I thought I read somewhere that Multimatic would begin using the '15 Mustang in August. If this is the case, I would expect that it will be a GT-350R model to give the street cars credibility, even though I expect the street version will have things not legal for competition as either standard or optional equipment. I see no reason to hamper the street car with 380mm steel brakes just to conform to SCCA or Tudor rules. The only way to bring down the cost of ceramic brakes is to equip more cars with them, so let's at least have them as an option.

My reasoning for this is simple, in competition the car is artificially limited in power, therefore 380mm may be sufficient at race weight. The street car will have more power and weigh more than it's competition counterpart. My street Boss already suffers from serious brake fade with anything less than a true comp pad, fluid and cooling ducts. The next gen car should not be handicapped the same way. Make it a true performer in all areas, and reverse engineer it for competition, or petition for a rule change to allow for modern technology which will be better and safer for all.

 

[Stuntman]

I never liked Track Pack, Performance Pack or SVT Package... I was ready for an R model 10 years ago. It just so happens that adding an R to the GT makes GTR. The Mustang has been a GT since 1964, anything V8 concerned should build on that... GTR, GT350, GT500... The GT itself is overused only because it's a popular racing class.

The 2005 Mustang GTR had more in common with the 2011 Mustang GT.R in Grand Am than the MARC VDS Mustang in FIA GT3. The Mustang did run in GT3... for a few seasons.

Leave the packages at home, bring back the "R".

Which 2011 GT.R that raced in GrandAm ?

Fwiw the "GT" nomenclature has been around decades before the Mustang and is used far more throughout history than "GTR", "GTO", etc...

 

[thePill]

Which 2011 GT.R that raced in GrandAm ?

Fwiw the "GT" nomenclature has been around decades before the Mustang and is used far more throughout history than "GTR", "GTO", etc...

Black Forest was the last Mustang in Grand Am GT, the GT.R (shared with the Camaro) was a replacement name for the FR500 after it was discontinued.

GT has always been class related at Ford, the "R" was usually an addition to the GT (like the GT350R). We are talking Mustang, GT and the "R" has been around since 1964. You would be an idiot to not put them together...

...especially since there are 4 different Boss 302's that need replacing. The two OEM and the two Mosport options. That's nearly 3 dozen classes a single model needs to be spec'd to. Another GT is needed...

I doubt the GT350 will qualify in the old Boss classes except GTS. The GT is spec'd to the very top of its classes.

Bring back the "R"

 

[FATTBoss]

I don't think anyone is saying NOT to have an R model, just don't call it a GT/R. I highly doubt Ford would call it a Mustang GT/R anyway. As others have pointed out, that name is now closely associated with Nissan, regardless of how many other cars may or may not have been called "GT/R".

As for building the car to fit within rules for a class, screw that. Take a page out of GM's book. Make the car the best it can be, and reverse engineer the car into the rules package, or better yet, petition for a rule change. As I said above, the street version will have more power and weight and will need bigger brakes than even the race car. If it doesn't have bigger more powerful brakes, all the reviews will again bitch about how lacking the car is in that department and it won't matter the lap times it might be able to put down, it will lose every single comparison test it is in. It won't matter if it's against Porsche, BMW or GM. Unless this car has serious brakes in spite of a competition rule package, all the "heritage" it might have from racing will be moot.

 

[thePill]

Just sayin'

It wouldn't be a surprise if Ford resurrected this concept for the 50th. It was very popular in 2004. I don't care what Nissan renamed a Skyline... They still owe Ford for the GT500 cylinder wall technology any way.

The Camaro GT.R and the Nissan GTR both race in the same class... Nobody cares.

 

[FATTBoss]

Concept car aside, Ford choose to call their competition cars "Cobra R" in '93, '95 and '00. They also choose to call the competition car version of the S-197 FR500 with various letter designations to differentiate the models. Also keep in mind that there was no GTR from Nissan in the States at the time of the concept. And quite honestly, that concept was so awesome, I completely forgot it even existed.

As for what GM may call their comp Camaro, yet another reason NOT to call the Mustang a GT/R. I would be willing to bet that 90% of Camaro fans don't even know a Camaro GT.R exists or what it's official name is. AND that car is really just what's left of the Pontiac racing program that pre-dates the GTO. It's a tube frame car that shares little if anything with a real Camaro.

I'm really curious why you want to bicker about the name and not discuss how the car should be equipped? No opinion on the brakes? Do you really think Ford or any maker should limit their street car to meet a competition rule package? I know you have been quite vocal about the Z/28, as have I, however my issue with the car is the engine and not tire size or brakes.

 

[All-Or-Nothing]

Please FORD........NO GTR or GT-R or GT.R

 

[thePill]

I think Black Forest was the last GT in GT, it was not a Cammer 5.0, it was Coyote based which I believe made the difference. Now, eligible models are designated with the ".R" in all classes. The Motorsport GT will be called a GTR anyway, Ford can't prevent that. Because NASCAR and IMSA intend on bringing back OEM cars, homologation could be an issue especially when options are vs. A sanctioned model. Factory Options, regardless if they are OEM or not, can accumulate penalties... Especially in NASA and SCCA. Although, it is possible they just all out ban a sub model (Laguna Seca in some NASA classes and the Z06/Z07. However, there is more of an effort to do so. Factory Performance options can accumulate points and force you into another class.

Trust me fella's, I am a HUGE promoter of OEM cars with legal equipment for the customer. There is a sound reasoning for needing an additional model right above a GT. Sure, still offer those "GTR", GT350, 350R and GT500 parts via factory options OR Ford Racing, but try to help this small percentage out. The R&D is done, they just need an updated badge.

The large aftermarket potential for GT's, the trademarked nameplate, younger buyers can associate with it AND, it could alleviate some troublesome Motorsport politics all in one shot. It's just good business. I believe the 2004 Mustang GTR was THE most advertised Mustang Concept initially for the S197. It was in video games, screen savers, die cast models, Hot Wheels...

It could be a mistake ignoring that pull...

 

[FATTBoss]

All of the competition cars are offered as part numbers, and not street legal cars. You simply can't buy a Boss 302S or 302R for street use, the same could be done to homologate a model for competition going forward. Hampering the street car with inferior brakes to meet an antiquated rule set makes little sense. The sanctioning bodies recognize that the manufacturers need to make money, so just like the Z/28 uses large ceramic brakes on the street car, but smaller metal brakes and smaller diameter wheels for competition, Ford can do the same moving forward.

The current Boss competition cars don't use the same brakes as the street cars, they use the slightly larger GT500 setup, which multiple tests of the GT500 have shown to be inadequate for that car. Given that the new GT is supposed to be even faster than the outgoing Boss, brakes will again be an issue in every performance test the car is in. Offering an even higher performing car with the same outdated brake package just doesn't make sense regardless of what rule package they are trying to meet.

 

[Grimace427]

All of the competition cars are offered as part numbers, and not street legal cars. You simply can't buy a Boss 302S or 302R for street use, the same could be done to homologate a model for competition going forward. Hampering the street car with inferior brakes to meet an antiquated rule set makes little sense. The sanctioning bodies recognize that the manufacturers need to make money, so just like the Z/28 uses large ceramic brakes on the street car, but smaller metal brakes and smaller diameter wheels for competition, Ford can do the same moving forward.

The current Boss competition cars don't use the same brakes as the street cars, they use the slightly larger GT500 setup, which multiple tests of the GT500 have shown to be inadequate for that car. Given that the new GT is supposed to be even faster than the outgoing Boss, brakes will again be an issue in every performance test the car is in. Offering an even higher performing car with the same outdated brake package just doesn't make sense regardless of what rule package they are trying to meet.

I agree with most of what you are saying except for the 15" six-pot Brembos being inadequate for the GT500. Those issues were detail oriented and not due to hardware design issues. A brake pad swap would have eliminated the problems the magazines reported.

 

[Stuntman]

Earnhardt drove the Rick Ware Racing Mustang in the GT class at Road America in 2012. I don't think Black forest ran since then.

The VDS car was a unibody while the RWR and BF were tube frames. Then"Man Racer" was the FR500GT which was closer to the FR500C than the transaxle equipped VDS car.

 

[thePill]

All of the competition cars are offered as part numbers, and not street legal cars. You simply can't buy a Boss 302S or 302R for street use, the same could be done to homologate a model for competition going forward. Hampering the street car with inferior brakes to meet an antiquated rule set makes little sense. The sanctioning bodies recognize that the manufacturers need to make money, so just like the Z/28 uses large ceramic brakes on the street car, but smaller metal brakes and smaller diameter wheels for competition, Ford can do the same moving forward.

The current Boss competition cars don't use the same brakes as the street cars, they use the slightly larger GT500 setup, which multiple tests of the GT500 have shown to be inadequate for that car. Given that the new GT is supposed to be even faster than the outgoing Boss, brakes will again be an issue in every performance test the car is in. Offering an even higher performing car with the same outdated brake package just doesn't make sense regardless of what rule package they are trying to meet.

i think your confusing Pro with Am...

The '15 GTR (or track pack) is pushing the very limits of most Am classes equipment wise. There could be no room for a GT in Pro... Initially, Ford could use a GT as a placeholder, to develop the GT350, in secrecy, in IMSA. That is a probability. It will be a GT.R, there is no avoiding that right now. Once the GT's settle in Am, this is where your options will hurt you. Accumulating penalty points for Factory equipment sucks... The standards in racing are taken from the advertised standard equipment (confirmed). In order to secure classes like T1 AND T2, you need a sub model or a different model all together. I'm highly doubtful the GT350 will fit into the T1 class. It's just too much car... A single, OEM GT won't cut it. This was an issue the last 3 seasons with the Boss 302 in T1 and the GT in T2. The GTR is just as fast as the Boss 302S in race rubber.

With Homologation requirements and the vast improvements in the S550, it makes any other scenario unlikely.

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