GT350 vs. Z/28

[Norm Peterson]

It's not just about the numbers . . .



Norm

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[GMAN6]

It's not just about the numbers . . .



Norm

I suppose you are right.....

A lot could be said for the Smart Car

 

[Taneras]

It's not just about the numbers . . .



Norm

It's a stripped down track car meant for one purpose - racing. What else could it be about?

Don't get me wrong, it does very well for a $75,000 car at the track. But then again that's all its good for. It's not a good daily driver and its not great at the drag strip. IMO it has to deliver on the numbers considering its price and its limitations. If you want "feel" then just save your cash and get a FRS/BRZ/Miata or some other flavor of a super light track oriented car.

 

[M.Senger]

It's a stripped down track car meant for one purpose - racing. What else could it be about?

Don't get me wrong, it does very well for a $75,000 car at the track. But then again that's all its good for. It's not a good daily driver and its not great at the drag strip. IMO it has to deliver on the numbers considering its price and its limitations. If you want "feel" then just save your cash and get a FRS/BRZ/Miata or some other flavor of a super light track oriented car.

Come on. Miata is slower than my aunt family van with diesel! Really! I know it's not all about numbers but come on... it's not funny to lose on every lights with family carriers in a "sports" car.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's a stripped down track car meant for one purpose - racing. What else could it be about?

Don't get me wrong, it does very well for a $75,000 car at the track.

Racing . . . I guess that's a close enough description for people who have never taken a car out on a road course, but we still need to think in terms of "track time" until such time as it manages to get sanctioned somewhere.

Have you ever stopped to think that there just might be a few people who actively prefer having fewer features and luxuries? That not having them is actually a plus?

But then again that's all its good for. It's not a good daily driver and its not great at the drag strip. IMO it has to deliver on the numbers considering its price and its limitations. If you want "feel" then just save your cash and get a FRS/BRZ/Miata or some other flavor of a super light track oriented car.

It's as good a daily driver as you make it out to be. Granted, its OE tires aren't particularly well-suited to long term daily use, but you ought to be able to put together a more streetable tire package on your own for the majority of your street driving - Pilot Super Sports on Forgestars comes to mind here. In the end, that's no different from putting together a separate set of track wheels and tires for a GT or an SS or a 1LE or a Boss 302.

Not great at the drag strip - so what? Why should it have to be? If street-legal versions of the Cobra Jet and the COPO were announced would you expect them to be able to pull 1.0+ lateral g and stop at 1.5g without parachute help, as delivered? Would you take the same kind of pot-shots at them when they didn't meet those performance targets as you're doing for the Z/28 for not being a dragstrip hero in the tradition of its engine displacement number?

Not everybody who drives on a road course wants their choices limited to lower powered momentum cars. Yes, they're fun to drive, and their nimbleness is really nice at autocross, but hustling a 3500# ponycar through the turns is a hoot.

Honestly, I just don't understand what people have against this car as a daily driver. You can opt for A/C and 6-speaker audio (that appears to have CD capability), and from the interior pictures it looks like you still get power windows and at least interior pushbutton capability to lock/unlock the doors. Just that short list alone makes the Z/28 more luxurious than over half the cars I've ever owned, and I never missed what they didn't have until I started needing A/C to get me through the summer.

As far as I'm concerned, any limitations are with those individuals who can't live with a minimum-frills kind of car. Not with the car itself. I don't think they'd fare any better with a Pro-Touring or Pro-Street car, or a street rod or a kit car, no matter what the level of craftsmanship might be. IOW, people shouldn't blame the car if it's not a good fit for them. Especially when it's apparent that they know this from the get-go


Norm

 

[Taneras]

Come on. Miata is slower than my aunt family van with diesel! Really! I know it's not all about numbers but come on... it's not funny to lose on every lights with family carriers in a "sports" car.

Your "aunt's family van with diesel" can do a 0-60 in under 6 seconds? While by no means is it fast, its not slow either.

On the other hand, there are conceivable encounters between a 30k GT and a certain 75k race car that end in the Mustang winning at a stop light race... Hell they might even be blaring music and have the ac on during the race - things the 75k race car cannot do.

 

[Taneras]

Racing . . . I guess that's a close enough description for people who have never taken a car out on a road course, but we still need to think in terms of "track time" until such time as it manages to get sanctioned somewhere.

If it was built for something else in mind please feel free to enlighten me, but it was my impression that Chevy marketed this car as a purebred track car.

And as far as track cars go, it seems to be all about the numbers. Unless of course you're more of a casual auto-cross enthusiast who does it for fun and just likes the feel of the car.

Have you ever stopped to think that there just might be a few people who actively prefer having fewer features and luxuries? That not having them is actually a plus?

I'm sure there are plenty of people like that... Its just a shame that they have to pay more for less, though. Then actually be charged even more for standard options.

It's as good a daily driver as you make it out to be. Granted, its OE tires aren't particularly well-suited to long term daily use, but you ought to be able to put together a more streetable tire package on your own for the majority of your street driving - Pilot Super Sports on Forgestars comes to mind here. In the end, that's no different from putting together a separate set of track wheels and tires for a GT or an SS or a 1LE or a Boss 302.

It's as good of a daily driver as you tolerate it to be. No heating or air, in and of itself, is a huge deal for a daily driver.

Not great at the drag strip - so what? Why should it have to be? If street-legal versions of the Cobra Jet and the COPO were announced would you expect them to be able to pull 1.0+ lateral g and stop at 1.5g without parachute help, as delivered? Would you take the same kind of pot-shots at them when they didn't meet those performance targets as you're doing for the Z/28 for not being a dragstrip hero in the tradition of its engine displacement number?

Well you're paying 75k for a car with no A/C or stereo, I think factoring in that high price respectful acceleration times should be expected.

Honestly, I just don't understand what people have against this car as a daily driver. You can opt for A/C and 6-speaker audio...

Yes but I wonder what the ~100lbs of extra materials would do to its cornering and acceleration? Not to mention you're asked to pay more for standard equipment that's been standard now for decades.

I'm not saying that the car is bad, just that I don't see what all the fuss about it is. You're paying 75k for a pure-bred track car that isn't a good daily driver and isn't spectacular at the strip.

I wonder what Ford could have done with the GT had it had a budget of 2.5 times its original price if it didn't have to worry about acceleration or give much thought to it being a daily driver?

I guess you could give Chevy props for actually doing it, but the car itself isn't as impressive as some of these articles are making it out to be. I guess my knee jerking reaction isn't against the car itself, its more against all the undeserved hype. It's a great car, but its not made of unobtanium.

 

[thePill]

I'm saying the car is bad, and it directly targeted Camaro enthusiast. It is NOT a purebred race car, it wasn't homologated for ANY specific series, it uses equipment that prohibits it from registering in every single class, in every major/minor organization worldwide... The consumables are kinda hefty, with that said "f@ck you competitive racer". It isn't in the spirit of anything but a money grubbing, media whore 5th Gen Camaro.

Leave drag racing out of this, the GT500 will be king for awhile, a looooooooog while, at least until SVT builds another one. The ZL1 is a Grand Tourer, a pretty decent one. Yeah, it's heavy, it's the size of a Taurus, kinda lacking in performance as far as 500+hp cars go. I mean, the 2007 GT500 had better media runs than the ZL1.

Plain and simple, Chevy couldn't beat the Boss in Motorsport with a 6.2 OR, a 5th Gen Camaro. The band aids that made a better Camaro possible eventually made it too expensive and not permitted to race competitively. The weight savings was probably a good chunk of that. The difference between an LS3 and LS7 is what? 40lbs? If that... They spent a lot of money on a car that is still, as heavy as an SS.

It's going to be very, very difficult to get a car with CCB's sanctioned anywhere. The 305mm front tire rule could change, the 380mm max rotor size might change eventually some day... The LS7 usually gets hammered in Pro, the CTSC z28 is a joke, a car engineered just as Riley did. Way to not participate like everybody else... Lazy? Out of Money? Taking Shortcuts? They sure acted like the Pro z28 and ZL1's were the real deal.

It's crazy because this was marketed towards the hardcore Camaro people. They took advantage of their own fans...

...pretty lame...

 

[M.Senger]

Your "aunt's family van with diesel" can do a 0-60 in under 6 seconds? While by no means is it fast, its not slow either.

On the other hand, there are conceivable encounters between a 30k GT and a certain 75k race car that end in the Mustang winning at a stop light race... Hell they might even be blaring music and have the ac on during the race - things the 75k race car cannot do.

MX-5 that is now avaible in Poland has 160KM and 7.9s 0-100 km/h. Mercedes Benz R class 350CDI does 0-100 km/h in 7.7s.

 

[Taneras]

MX-5 that is now avaible in Poland has 160KM and 7.9s 0-100 km/h. Mercedes Benz R class 350CDI does 0-100 km/h in 7.7s.

MT, in a comparison with an FRS, recorded that a 2013 Miata Club cuts a 6.1 0-60.

 

[Norm Peterson]

If it was built for something else in mind please feel free to enlighten me, but it was my impression that Chevy marketed this car as a purebred track car.

And as far as track cars go, it seems to be all about the numbers. Unless of course you're more of a casual auto-cross enthusiast who does it for fun and just likes the feel of the car.

Being marketed as a purebred track car still doesn't make it a real race car. Once you aren't limited by sanctioning body rules and allowances, sooner or later you'll encounter somebody whose car can put up better numbers.

I'm sure there are plenty of people like that... Its just a shame that they have to pay more for less, though. Then actually be charged even more for standard options.

Chevy doesn't have to find us by the millions . . . only about 3000 . . . base price is what it is.

Do you remember when A/C was strictly an option in most cars? Or when even a 1-speaker AM radio was an extra cost option? I do, and I even bought a couple of new cars while that was still common practice - in late 1971 and again in early 1979.

It's as good of a daily driver as you tolerate it to be. No heating or air, in and of itself, is a huge deal for a daily driver.

"Tolerate" is the view from an expectation of luxury. "Actively prefering less" is the flip side, where needless luxury is looked at as something to avoid. See the difference?

<sigh> Hasn't the matter of A/C been addressed enough times yet? Those who don't need or want it finally have a car so (un)equipped. Anybody who is smart enough to know he's going to need it but is too stubborn or too stupid to check the box for it . . . what more can I say?

As for heat, FMVSS #103 requires all vehicles to be equipped with a windshield defrosting/defogging system that meets some minimum performance. Normally this employs heated air, which will also warm up the interior. When it's just me in any of our (4) cars, defrost heat is nearly always all I need, and no I don't drive with gloves on in the winter - no big deal. That aside I doubt that the Z/28 would feature the required defroster and eliminate the dash and floor vents. If you can find out otherwise, I'll stand corrected.

Well you're paying 75k for a car with no A/C or stereo, I think factoring in that high price respectful acceleration times should be expected.

OK, once in the same post isn't enough? I'm usually pretty patient . . . and I'm trying desperately hard here . . .

Just knowing what engine was going into it with only a rough idea what the weight was going to be, anybody who expected this car to be everyman's no-brainer-11-second car was dreaming. Continuing to expect 11's is an exercise in self-deception.

Yes but I wonder what the ~100lbs of extra materials would do to its cornering and acceleration? Not to mention you're asked to pay more for standard equipment that's been standard now for decades.

I think the A/C weight was posted somewhere, and I don't think it was anywhere near 100 lbs. But since you asked, the rule of thumb for 100 lbs is about 0.1 second at the dragstrip (since that's apparently important to you) and 0.02g, maybe 0.03g off the 1.08 lateral g's Chevy is claiming on their .com site. I'm thinking closer to 0.04 seconds and less than 0.01 lateral g.

Exactly what commonly "standard equipment" do you think you really need in order to operate the damn car?

I will stipulate to A/C and a basic sound system, OK? Now can we let this one go?
After that, there's
heater/defroster
rear window defrost
speedometer and fuel gauge, glorified idiot lights (aka "gauges") for other functions, maybe a tach
some sort of outside mirror adjustment capability
some way to open the side windows
seat position adjustments
turn signals and other lighting controls
w/s wipers & washers
steering wheel and pedals

Maybe add a 12v power outlet and a couple of places to store stuff out of sight even though they aren't required for driving per se (but 12v does run the little tire pumps and can recharge your GoPro batteries, and places to put stuff does keep said stuff from finding its way under the brake pedal)

I'm not saying that the car is bad, just that I don't see what all the fuss about it is. You're paying 75k for a pure-bred track car that isn't a good daily driver and isn't spectacular at the strip.

I get it already - it's not a good daily driver for you.

But you're kidding yourself if you think that your preference for a more feature-laden DD must of necessity be held by everybody. Chevy certainly does get props for building a car that goes out of its way to buck the trend to having ever more stuff crammed into it. Less is more, and I guess I can appreciate that better than you can.

The matter of price, it is what it is. Marketing is something else, though you can chose to view it all skeptically or for the most part even ignore it rather than read too much into it (advertisers probably hate people like me). You'd still be complaining about the lack of features even if it could run heads-up with the GT500 all the way down the quarter mile.


Norm

 

[Taneras]

Chevy doesn't have to find us by the millions . . . only about 3000 . . . base price is what it is.

I don't care, there are enough fanboys for any car brand to snap up limited production models of their favorite sports car. Hell, I bet I could even sell 3,000 pet rocks in a year...

Do you remember when A/C was strictly an option in most cars? Or when even a 1-speaker AM radio was an extra cost option? I do, and I even bought a couple of new cars while that was still common practice - in late 1971 and again in early 1979.

1994 was two decades ago...

"Tolerate" is the view from an expectation of luxury. "Actively prefering less" is the flip side, where needless luxury is looked at as something to avoid. See the difference?

99% of drivers would define having a/c and a stereo as requirements for a daily driver. I'm sure there are people out there that are "actively prefering less" and would be ok with that as a daily driver. Hell, I'm sure some people would think an M1 Abrams Tank is a good daily driver (yes I'm exaggerating). This is the problem when you say that its not all about the numbers and let subjectivity come into play.

Most people would find the Z28 as not being a good daily driver. No, that's not an objective claim, just a vast majority claim. Perhaps its the perfect daily driver for you, and perhaps an M1 Abrams Tank is the perfect daily driver for me. But overall, the vast majority of the population will mark both of these in the poor daily driver category - and that's the critique I'm pointing out.

OK, once in the same post isn't enough? I'm usually pretty patient . . . and I'm trying desperately hard here . . .

Geeze you sound like some sort of automotive diety, should I apologize for my insolence?

I think the A/C weight was posted somewhere, and I don't think it was anywhere near 100 lbs. But since you asked, the rule of thumb for 100 lbs is about 0.1 second at the dragstrip (since that's apparently important to you) and 0.02g, maybe 0.03g off the 1.08 lateral g's Chevy is claiming on their .com site. I'm thinking closer to 0.04 seconds and less than 0.01 lateral g.

I was speaking about the A/C and stereo. Fairly sure more weight was lost with disregarding sound deadening as well but whatever...

Adding ~100lbs would affect its lap times. You're losing acceleration, having to brake a little earlier, and losing some grip in the turns. It'd also bump the price up a tad. I wonder what the times would be and how it'd compare to its competition who does have a/c, stereo, etc standard?

Again, my main gripe really isn't the car itself, its the hype coming from some of the reviews.

I get it already - it's not a good daily driver for you.

And the vast majority of drivers as well.

But you're kidding yourself if you think that your preference for a more feature-laden DD must of necessity be held by everybody. Chevy certainly does get props for building a car that goes out of its way to buck the trend to having ever more stuff crammed into it. Less is more, and I guess I can appreciate that better than you can.

I would be kidding myself, thankfully I'm not that dull. I'm not just stating my opinion, but the opinions of most drivers. Yes I understand this car wasn't aimed at most drivers, and that's fine. Again, my issue is with the hype.

It's a striped down Camaro with a 75k budget, so yes of course its going to run with higher priced cars. No that's not suprising. Yes Chevy should get credit for actually creating that car for such a small niche. And no, this car wasn't forged on Mt. Olympus by Zues. Chevy didn't work a miracle here, they've actually created in house cannibalism because of the C7. This is about what you'd expect from a car like this.

You'd still be complaining about the lack of features even if it could run heads-up with the GT500 all the way down the quarter mile.

Actually I wouldn't if the price remained the same or didn't go up too much, but since we're giving ourselves licenses to say how other people feel...

You're just a Chevy fanboy, you'd buy a turd if it had the bowtie on it.

But in all seriousness, you don't know what I think or how I feel. I'm not a Ford fanboy and I don't worship the GT500. The only cars that I'd say deserve the hype they've recieved are the C6 Z06 and the Nissan GTR. Bang for buck both defy the laws of physics. Notice no Ford or Mustang mentioned...

 

[Norm Peterson]

I have a really good idea what I want from a car (as much performance as I can reasonably afford, with cornering & handling holding top priority), what I don't want it to have (all manner of gee-whiz stuff I don't need and won't use), and what things are total deal-breakers all by themselves if they cannot be avoided (AT in particular, but there are a few other things). So far, no mfr has managed to sell me more than two cars, or two in a row.

The Z/28 comes closer than anything else has since that 1979 we bought all those years ago (and which was still the car I preferred to be driving over 25 years later when it was just me in it). It's just refreshing that there can still be a car that's all about the driving (including, but not limited to "fast") and not about all manner of irrelevant features. Other than coping with its 60-TW tires, I truly can't imagine it being a hardship to regularly drive this car on the street, given that you opt for the A/C (which adds the stereo). Sure, I'd like to have seen it come in at a lower price point, just like I would probably feel the same way if Ford ever decides to build a more or less direct competitor.


Incidentally, I have driven a 2014 Corvette at speed on a road course. For only one lap, but that's more driving and harder driving than most people have had the opportunity to experience, and enough to be seriously impressed with its capabilities without having to take anybody else's word for it.


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

I have a really good idea what I want from a car (as much performance as I can reasonably afford, with cornering & handling holding top priority), what I don't want it to have (all manner of gee-whiz stuff I don't need and won't use), and what things are total deal-breakers all by themselves if they cannot be avoided (AT in particular, but there are a few other things). So far, no mfr has managed to sell me more than two cars, or two in a row.

The Z/28 comes closer than anything else has since that 1979 we bought all those years ago (and which was still the car I preferred to be driving over 25 years later when it was just me in it). It's just refreshing that there can still be a car that's all about the driving (including, but not limited to "fast") and not about all manner of irrelevant features. Other than coping with its 60-TW tires, I truly can't imagine it being a hardship to regularly drive this car on the street, given that you opt for the A/C (which adds the stereo). Sure, I'd like to have seen it come in at a lower price point, just like I would probably feel the same way if Ford ever decides to build a more or less direct competitor.


Incidentally, I have driven a 2014 Corvette at speed on a road course. For only one lap, but that's more driving and harder driving than most people have had the opportunity to experience, and enough to be seriously impressed with its capabilities without having to take anybody else's word for it.


Norm

The weight of a stereo mattered in your day Norm, today just look at your phone. That is what is powering all of that. it is nothing.

I understand everything you are saying, but AC doesn't factor into any argument you make, as that corvette had AC too.. so do Lambos.


You seem bias of the old days.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The weight of A/C, etc., was your point rather than mine (in an all-out race car of course it matters, in a track day car perhaps not and especially not if you drove it there instead of trailering it).

Weight, per se, hasn't ever mattered to me when it's come time to pick options, and it wouldn't if I was to go out shopping for a Z/28 or any other car an hour from now.

I probably am biased toward the way cars used to be option-able - Spartan at the base model level, to which you added only the things you wanted and where you could generally avoid getting things you didn't. And from what I see on the Z/28 page I really don't care to have anything above the Z/28 in its basic trim other than the A/C (which I physically need these days in order to stay out of heat stress, and which I've never argued against getting) and the fairly simple sound system that comes with it. It does not matter to me that it's a separate option and that I must actively select it. I can do that.

Basically, I don't want any more complexity than I'll use, particularly if any of it can be accidentally tripped as has happened a few times in my wife's Legacy 2.5GT (some button on the steering wheel can be accidentally hit, and the damn car starts asking me to do something when the only sound I want to be hearing needs to be coming from the car's horn - just an example . . . and dammit, no, I don't want to sync anything to the car or whatever it is that hitting that button calls up).


Norm

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