GT350 vs. Z/28

[Norm Peterson]

There are cars with great amounts of engineering that provide both. (Fully optioned & spartan interior.)

Learn they are not mutually exclusive.

The German mfrs in particular have been doing things in more complicated fashion than necessary for years. Before electronics, it was via switch operated relays when just the switches would do. Not exactly a pure definition of "simple" even then.

You still haven't convinced me to want all manner of features I'll never use, and the reality being that I don't and won't want them, why I should have to put up with them being there at all. Even if you think I'm supposed to want things the same way as you do, that doesn't mean I do or ever will. And at least 3000 other people are expected to feel the same way as I do on this . . . plus an unknown number of people for whom the $75000 price of Z/28 entry is too high to justify.

I dare say you don't sound like much of a DIY'er unless your day job is as a service tech in a dealership or upper level aftermarket facility. You wouldn't want to have to deal with the complexity, especially with even the simplest tasks being routed through some module or other (Smart Junction Box for us current Mustang owners, aka Stupid Junction Box once any moisture finds its way inside). Don't get me started.


Norm

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[garagelogic]

w3 - the Z/28's lack of (nearly) everything is part of its appeal. It doesn't even pretend to be the right kind of car for everybody. You either understand this or you don't, and if you can't understand it there is no way you could appreciate it. There's plenty of evidence right here in this thread that people are missing the point.

In some respects, the Z/28 actually has too much (all those PTM modes, for example - just give me an 'everything off and locked out' and be done with it).


Norm

z/28 is a compromise by GM and is suffering from an identity crisis. No matter how people want to spin it, it is not a dedicated track car, as it carries a VIN. Dedicated track cars do not and are not legal to drive on public roads. Neither is it a daily driver, despite the VIN it carries. Again, it is a compromise and an answer for Camaro diehards, nothing more.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Neither is it a daily driver, despite the VIN it carries.

This is where we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

That leaves plenty of room for anybody to maintain that it would be a totally unreasonable daily driver for them, without saying that just because it isn't a good daily for them it couldn't be a good daily for me.


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

w3 - the Z/28's lack of (nearly) everything is part of its appeal. It doesn't even pretend to be the right kind of car for everybody. You either understand this or you don't, and if you can't understand it there is no way you could appreciate it. There's plenty of evidence right here in this thread that people are missing the point.

In some respects, the Z/28 actually has too much (all those PTM modes, for example - just give me an 'everything off and locked out' and be done with it).


Norm

My 99' hardtop vette was spartan, My BMW is spartan.. the Z28 is intentionally raw... trying to be something it is not. (ie: marketing)

Honestly, what does the Z28 lack, that makes the interior spartan and so desirable..? That can't be had equally on cars costing $30k less..?

Or.. You can buy a BMW R, or a Porsche club track car for $85k, if part of the appeal of the Z28 is owning a race car, then just buy one that you can actually race. Why be a poser..?

 

[Norm Peterson]

I thought we were long past discussing whether the Z/28 is a race car in its as-produced form or just a rather capable track day car.

For starters, MyLink and its touchscreen are MIA on the Z/28, and oh the horror - you have to manually adjust the seat position.

What factor would you suggest using to compare the costs of operating a W2W race car with team and transport vs a car you can drive to track day outings?


Norm

 

[Jim968]

No matter how people want to spin it, it is not a dedicated track car, as it carries a VIN. Dedicated track cars do not and are not legal to drive on public roads.

One of the most ignorant comments in this thread. And that's saying a LOT. Clearly you've never been to a track event.

 

[thePill]

Actually, I would agree... A real race application needs some changes in which makes it non-street legal. If your driving your car to the track, it isn't for competition. Period...

While fun and convenient, it's just a toy. Now, that's not saying some platforms are better suited for competition and require far less changes to major components. The z28 fits both of these bad labels, not competition and not ideal for conversion.

I think a lot of people here need more time IN events and not spectating.

 

[garagelogic]

One of the most ignorant comments in this thread. And that's saying a LOT. Clearly you've never been to a track event.

Clearly, you don't know me at all. I've been tracking cars for decades, both the curvy and straight line variety.

The fact remains, the z/28 is either a street car maximized for track performance or it is a dedicated track car with just enough street-legal content to be eligible to receive a VIN. Thus, it has an identity crisis.

 

[Jim968]

Clearly, you don't know me at all. I've been tracking cars for decades, both the curvy and straight line variety.

Then how can you make a statement like “dedicated track cars do not and are not legal to drive on public roads”? Virtually all of the instructor corps of my local club owns a dedicated track car that is driven to the track, or can be if necessary. I myself own a championship winning W2W race car that is completely street legal for those rare occasions when I want to drive it on the street.

Dedicated track cars can’t have VIN’s? How do you think stock class race cars start their lives? The entire field in my last race carried VIN’s.

Maybe you’ve been to the track, but you sure haven’t been paying attention.

 

[thePill]

This is the issue with false advertising. Initially, Team Camaro started marketing the z28 as a race car. There was even some back and forth internally, even they didn't know... To race or not to race? They had no idea. They also marketed the car with a 50/50 weight distribution and apparently had no concern about the media reporting otherwise, 53/47 to 55/45 is not 50/50... They advertise a dry sump LS7 but I never heard of any changes in engine placement to aid with distribution.

I think we explored Nurburgring runs didn't we? Running a cage no doubt... When comparing times at the Ring, they were literally competing internally with the ZL1 and Stingray. That is pretty dumb, even dumber that engineering a race car you can't race. Professionally, the z28 is a joke. I really don't care how Stuntman feels about it, it's wrong and he can whine about it somewhere else. Using a 7 liter V8 in CTSCC, with very little restriction and big time modifications, it's embarrassing. It shows how pitiful the platform is, if you can't see that, your blind. I am willing to bet, the list of components Pratt was allowed to use was a long one. Most of the suspension components were converted and not because of a Sponsor. The 5th Gens suspension geometry sucks. I believe even the control arms were changed... The drivetrain is completely different than the OEM z28s set up. Also notice Pratt had to use carbon fiber body panels because the extensive 2014 z28 weight reduction wasn't enough.

If your planning on tracking a nearly 4100lb car, you need to have your head examined. It's so counter productive and devastating on consumables, makes it very hard to take seriously. It's also hard to take a driver seriously if that's what is being considered... In fact, I can't really take a manufacturer seriously with boast like that. Even if it were true and widely accepted to compete, it's illogical. You are at a disadvantage right off the bat. It's a joke...

The media event was pretty lame and these little fits of compulsive marketing of things not true make the team look bad. Their GT500 time at Milford was broke on video, the driver told the passenger they were going at about 80%... They coasted through the entire corner on a few occasions. It was a very light run but still managed to beat their own claimed time. It's so funny sometimes, I have tears in my eyes. They are deathly afraid of the GT500 and as many have already seen via SVTPERFORMANCE's very own SID (Travis) sweet f----ing detective work. Caught red handed... We see those discussions on C5 in the z28 Ring thread dry up. Hell, my topic here has become more viewed that that misdirection thread. The z was caged, yes... shut up... It was caged. The CG was changed and when that happens? Guess what, other changes HAD to be made to compensate for that. It is now beyond stock. The caged z28 adds more weight in the right place. Remember, 53/47 now becomes, possibly, a 50/50. It's a different car altogether. They ate it up but truly shows what most people know. Does anyone comprehend what a 3% difference would be at those speeds?

A 6 point roll bar of .120 wall is about 100lbs (around 20 feet of tube). Weight is bad, but I'm betting that the car was lightened a bit further. We can never prove any of this because the car is GONE. Missing... The center piece of their marketing program just disappeared... How strange. Last time they paraded the ZL1 around... I think people may have caught on, maybe being informed via forums about a caged car vs. just an OEM car. They are not capable of running mid-7's in a hand me down, sedan platform that cost around $19,000 to make. Don't worry, the S197 needed improvements too. Just one brags about it and the other doesn't.

It kills me Team Camaro perverted J. May's "Spirit of the Original" theme with this Mack truck. They allowed C5 members to falsely build this thing up as a potential Championship winner. They should have come in and go over the classes and help their "faithful" out. I seen some "claimed" racers that dismissed the rule book notion altogether. They too are false...

Point being, as with every 5th Gen model, what they claim is not what your gonna get. The 1LE could have been good but it was destroyed in T2 by the 5.0 GT, and 6 other Coyote GT's. These were ordered base GT's too. I'm sure they were aware of the GT500's Ring times, if I knew I'm sure they did too. Ford didn't advertise because, like the Camaro, it had a cage. The 2013 GT500 doesn't have a cage option. It would have been closer to 50/50 like the ZL1 and z28 and the extra weight doesn't come into play as much when in motion and for only one lap.

I don't want to see a Ringer media event... That's what they did with the ZL1 and once people got them and magazines were in control, the ZL1's changed. 11's all day still gets me laughing, a fully caged run is hilarious... Getting beat on a tight track by the GT500 in half the events was a cherry on top. The last REAL street legal race car was the 2000 Cobra R, the 2012 Boss 302 was a homologation of the REAL thing. Like the original, the Boss 302 was born on the track just like the 2012. The Laguna Seca was just a more hardcore version of the dumb down OEM car. The z28 was made for homologation but.... Why??? The two cars have less in common than the SS and GS.R did. How can you do that? Homologation was suppose to be the race car MADE for the public and not really even intended to be a street legal race car. However, since Ford Racing made an effort in sanctioning the 5.0, they did the same with the Boss so it could be tracked, raced and could compete. The Amateur level showed the Boss to be a really competitive model. I believe a woman even drove a Boss 301 to a Ladies championship if I remember right. BUT... Professionally, it had a HUGE impact on racing. It was an onslaught against the M3 and helped usher back in true factory racing again...

Right now, the z28 is the last one to not comply with homologation. This is not the spirit I was told about. This is something different... It's a completely new marketing machine that has very little purpose on the street and absolutely no business on the track. I can't take anyone serious that takes a 4000+lbs vehicle serious as a track or race car. I'm sorry guys, anyone building cars would see stars after hearing this. Its still a chuckle to me... The price kills me but, if it were legal, I think that's a great price. If you could pull weight out on these 5th Gens it wouldn't be so bad but, the major weight is in the support structure. The body makes a great drag racing platform BUT, the IRS sucks...

The 5th Gen in General is just not a great option for strip and circuit. You can argue all you want on track vs. racing. Open track is like walking in the park and this is what a z28 is good for. Not only that, you can walk to the park, walk all day under warranty and walk back home no problem. However, there were millions of cheaper options that would have far exceeded your walking capabilities about $35,000 dollars ago...

...just a thought...

 

[garagelogic]

Then how can you make a statement like “dedicated track cars do not and are not legal to drive on public roads”? Virtually all of the instructor corps of my local club owns a dedicated track car that is driven to the track, or can be if necessary. I myself own a championship winning W2W race car that is completely street legal for those rare occasions when I want to drive it on the street.

Dedicated track cars can’t have VIN’s? How do you think stock class race cars start their lives? The entire field in my last race carried VIN’s.

Maybe you’ve been to the track, but you sure haven’t been paying attention.

I get what you are trying to say, but as Pill says, who in their right mind would buy a $75k z/28 to use for public track days? If you're into those types of events, there are much lighter and cheaper ways to be at or near the top of the best lap times at the event.

No, this car was built for a few outspoken Camaro diehards, few of which will ever drive the car at the venue GM states the car was designed for. That's fine, but please, let them at least acknowledge the car for what it is, not what they would like the automotive world to think it is.

 

[thePill]

I get what you are trying to say, but as Pill says, who in their right mind would buy a $75k z/28 to use for public track days? If you're into those types of events, there are much lighter and cheaper ways to be at or near the top of the best lap times at the event.

No, this car was built for a few outspoken Camaro diehards, few of which will ever drive the car at the venue GM states the car was designed for. That's fine, but please, let them at least acknowledge the car for what it is, not what they would like the automotive world to think it is.

I need to add a disclaimer along with this Logic if I can...

This is to both sides because it applies to both Mustang and Camarillo (LOL!!! @ the "Camarillo" auto correct!!!). Be extra cautious even on OPEN TRACK DAYS. ANY TIMED EVENT COULD AFFECT YOUR WARRANTY. Most Open Track events are not timed and wave by passing, if any passing at all. If they confirm a timed event, your warranty could be void. This isn't as critical on a GT but, an expensive part list is a major drawback on new cars.

My take on people wanting a warranty on a track car... I think warranties on open track days are gift enough. Beyond that, warranties are of no real concern.

I'm afraid that's all the z28 was built for. The internet Nurburgring racer that is concerned about warranties and single lap comparisons. Unfortunately, while trying to appease the driving gloved, occasional open tracker, Chevy pole vaulted the MSRP into real race car money. Sure, a "race car" is worth $80,000...

...but a track car is not...

I can get a great dedicated race car, a great F Series for family and towing for $80,000 if I shop right. I'm not gonna class with Formula 1 like the z28 but, it would test my limits for sure. I'd probably pay far less insurance too, maybe less fuel even when towing.

 

[Jim968]

I get what you are trying to say, but as Pill says, who in their right mind would buy a $75k z/28 to use for public track days?

The same people who would buy a Porsche GT3 for this purpose. Go to a PCA HPDE sometime and you'll see a LOT of these guys. This kind of guy has more $$$ than most and views the Z/28 as a bargain. If you go over to the Porsche forum you'll see there are at least 2 GT3 track guys who are waiting on delivery of a Z/28.

 

[thePill]

Ford never marketed a GT500 run because of the upgrades... Chevy did...

Um.... A 6 point does NOT have an A pillar tube, sorry... You also couldn't see the ZL1 or GT500's cages in the video, but they were there. Anyone that wants to believe they would put a driver at risk at 100-160mph without a bar or cage is delusional. Extremely delusional...

I would like to see the actual car, not the silver Milford car they tried to pass off as THE car that ran the lap. They even tried to pass Milford off as Nurburgring in the press release.

That, along with your struggle here is comical, but very entertaining.

 

[thePill]

Yes, a 6 point cage joins the side tubes and A tube together. In turn, it still is a 6 and not 8. A roll bar is a roll bar and does not have an A pillar tube. I really don't care what you guys believe, it had some kind of tubing, no doubt. I'm feel for those that bought that... The fact that the car is completely MIA is suspect. Take a look at the camo'd z28's running there prior, they have extensive tube work.

Make believe can be fun... but I'm not buying it. They ran it, SHAVED LAP TIMES and sold that to your a$$es as fact. Lol!!

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