Gt350 vs e92 M3

[Todd15Fastback]

I did say for the money huh? lol. I meant that for a new car that has performance this good, the value is pretty good. The only cars stock, NEW from factory that can beat the GT350 are cars like the Corvette, and those are a bit more money.

How is the reliability on a used M3? I need honest answers before I text my bud who was a BMW tech and get the truth.

[MENTION=16871]mustang_guy[/MENTION]He can fill us in on this M3 V8.

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[MCarsFan]

I did say for the money huh? lol. I meant that for a new car that has performance this good, the value is pretty good. The only cars stock, NEW from factory that can beat the GT350 are cars like the Corvette, and those are a bit more money.

How is the reliability on a used M3? I need honest answers before I text my bud who was a BMW tech and get the truth.

I owned an E90 M3 and I know a lot about that car. Reliability is rock solid. I owned it for 3 years and besides oil changes, I didnt have to do anything else.

In terms of long term reliability, S65 engine suffers from rod bearings that wear prematurely. There is solution however which is coated bearings and the job is $800. Not bad.

The other failure item is throttle body actuator. At $600 per bank, it is costly but only comes up once you are beyond 75k miles and I believe its a rare problem impacting 10% of the cars or less.

BMW's E9X M3 is actually the most reliable BMWs of all time as per BMW. S65 engine has won international engine awards back to back many years and is considered one of the best engines of all time. It makes 104hp per liter compared to 101 of Vodoo and is up there the likes of metzger engine used at 997 gt3 generation.

Listen, no one is denying GT350 is a great car, I for one as a person who owned E90 M3 and a lot of M cars including M5, think very highly of GT350 and want one (hence I am here). The point I and others making is this vodoo engine, while it may be a first for Americans and mustang crowd, its old news for the rest of us. Does not make it a less of an engine, its great, sounds great, thumbs up.

What I said about 26k price difference and how much you can improve the E92 for that money should not be ignored. I think E92 is a far better daily driver, has more rear leg room (you can comfortably put 2 car seats there), has much better technology (sad really what you get with track pack on gt350), and to top it all, you have a DCT transmission that is rock solid, far far far better than what GM has in the Z06 (I drove them both sorry). DCT is definitely something that makes the car much easier to tolerate in Manhattan bumper to bumper traffic.

I am shopping for a second car, weekend/track toy. And to be honest after owning so many M cars, I want something different. But if anyone here is looking at GT350 as the only car to daily drive, I strongly recommend E92 M3. Its a far better car to daily drive for similar performance and as I said for 25k, that car can be made a track monster.

 

[mustang_guy]

As a bmw master tech, im going to tell you this, without getting into it here because bmw fans cry when i tell how it is. You should run away from anything with a bmw badge. Despite what the bmw fans will tell you, they are incorrect about the real info about reliability.

 

[baege]

honestly most people here probably never driven one, or own one, or couldn't afford one. Before the s550 gen I wouldn't even give the mustang a second look due to the obvious reasons.

the s550 with IRS started changing my opinion about the car, and the gt350 for sure attracted a lot of the n/a 6spd crowd from BMW and Porsche, me included.

I am fortunate enough to own both, and I gave my unbiased opinion about both. As i said, the e92 m3 is closer to a perfect car than the gt350. in fact, I would take a stroker m3 or s85b50 swap m3 over gt350 anyday.

the biggest weakness of gt350 are size and weight and that 16.5:1 steering ratio with ESP and none of which you can really do anything about.
The m3 has lower weight, feels and is much smaller, and 12.5:1 hydraulic steering that is race like.

also, you can tell the voodoo engine has much heavier crank, it revs slower and rpm falls back much slower than m3, partially due to its shorter stroke, and partially due to a light crank at 44lbs vs. 50+ for voodoo.

not to mention, the s65b40 is a work of art, with 8 ITB for instant throttle response. what other production cars have that?

Thanks for the very helpful replies. I think you are swaying me towards the M3. and it's not just because I also love Arsenal

A little about me, I currently have a 2016 Cayman S. I went from a 2014 Cayman S to a 2015 C7 ZF1 (not Z51). I made that move last spring because I wanted a change and I was looking for some good low end torque times like I had in my youth with my ol 5.0 stangs. Well the C7 disappointed me on many fronts, including size, visibility and throttle response. So your comments about the e92 being superior to the gt350 on those fronts really hit home. The C7's throttle response is very artificial and laggy, owing to its torque management system. You really feel this with partial throttle inputs, if you really lay into it, it's not too bad in track mode, but at anything less than like 3/4 throttle, it is laggy, even in track mode. The laggy throttle means that the stellar low end torque is not all that accessible anyways. Honestly at partial throttle inputs the C7 didn't feel much quicker than my 981S (which has great throttle response) around town. This really disappointed me. I also didn't like not being to check my driver's side blind spot (you have to rely on mirrors only) and I found the large wide hood took away from feeling connected to the road.

So after 3 days with the C7 I tried to get my old Cayman S back (a Porsche dealer had bought it from me), but it was sold, so I was forced to order a new cayman, a 2016. Not sure why the e92 didn't come up on my radar at the time, but it didn't.

I still enjoy the cayman, but I am bored with it, since between the 2014 and 2016 I have had the same car for about 3 years and that's a long time for me. I also find lately I am moving more to a grand touring style of driving, I don't enjoy revving it out all the time and driving like a hooligan. More of a cruiser than a bruiser now.

Sounds like the e92 might be the better choice for me over a gt350. I am also contemplating an f type coupe manual or a vantage v8 2009 and up if anyone has any insights on those

 

[Todd15Fastback]

I owned an E90 M3 and I know a lot about that car. Reliability is rock solid. I owned it for 3 years and besides oil changes, I didnt have to do anything else.

In terms of long term reliability, S65 engine suffers from rod bearings that wear prematurely. There is solution however which is coated bearings and the job is $800. Not bad.

The other failure item is throttle body actuator. At $600 per bank, it is costly but only comes up once you are beyond 75k miles and I believe its a rare problem impacting 10% of the cars or less.

BMW's E9X M3 is actually the most reliable BMWs of all time as per BMW. S65 engine has won international engine awards back to back many years and is considered one of the best engines of all time. It makes 104hp per liter compared to 101 of Vodoo and is up there the likes of metzger engine used at 997 gt3 generation.

Listen, no one is denying GT350 is a great car, I for one as a person who owned E90 M3 and a lot of M cars including M5, think very highly of GT350 and want one (hence I am here). The point I and others making is this vodoo engine, while it may be a first for Americans and mustang crowd, its old news for the rest of us. Does not make it a less of an engine, its great, sounds great, thumbs up.

What I said about 26k price difference and how much you can improve the E92 for that money should not be ignored. I think E92 is a far better daily driver, has more rear leg room (you can comfortably put 2 car seats there), has much better technology (sad really what you get with track pack on gt350), and to top it all, you have a DCT transmission that is rock solid, far far far better than what GM has in the Z06 (I drove them both sorry). DCT is definitely something that makes the car much easier to tolerate in Manhattan bumper to bumper traffic.

I am shopping for a second car, weekend/track toy. And to be honest after owning so many M cars, I want something different. But if anyone here is looking at GT350 as the only car to daily drive, I strongly recommend E92 M3. Its a far better car to daily drive for similar performance and as I said for 25k, that car can be made a track monster.

What does that sentence mean? Old news for the rest of us? so the FPC's are used in BMWs, too? I believe the 5.2 FPC is the largest displacement ever for a FPC. Just not following the context of your statement.

 

[MCarsFan]

As a bmw master tech, im going to tell you this, without getting into it here because bmw fans cry when i tell how it is. You should run away from anything with a bmw badge. Despite what the bmw fans will tell you, they are incorrect.

Where do you work?

I have owned 7 BMWs in 15 years. I visited BMW service besides maintance 0 times. 6 of the cars I owned were Ms and they have been amazing.

They take abuse so much, its not even funny. The cooling on my M5 or the F80 M3 I owned was 10 times better than what you find in a corvette z06 for example. I can track my M5 (funny I know), with two turbos running 18 psi, that car goes on and on and on and coolant temperatures dont even come close to 230F. In corvette they are at 300 in 5 minutes. Corvette is the only american car I know that has forced induction which is why I am bringing it up.

I drive my cars extremely hard. Always on manual mode, revs constantly above 4k, at least 2-3 redlines everyday to and from work. A lot of diff work too. And for the love of god I cannot break these cars. Maybe I am lucky who knows.

I know that regular BMWs such as 335 with HPFP issues or 550 with the big N63 recall have been very badly publicized. But as I said, M cars have been nothing but fantastic.

The only thing you have to do in an M3 or an M5 is brake fluid flush. And maybe pads but only if you are consistently hitting the track (once a month). I have 3 track days on my M5 with 20k miles and my stock pads are still good for another 8000 miles. Whereas with a corvette for example you have to mix water with the coolant, use a different oil, change this and do that. Too much "track prep". Its comforting to drop my wife and kid at the mall, drive to a track, do my thing and pick them up with absolutely no prep, no overheat or any worry about something breaking.

 

[mustang_guy]

Where do you work?

I have owned 7 BMWs in 15 years. I visited BMW service besides maintance 0 times. 6 of the cars I owned were Ms and they have been amazing.

They take abuse so much, its not even funny. The cooling on my M5 or the F80 M3 I owned was 10 times better than what you find in a corvette z06 for example. I can track my M5 (funny I know), with two turbos running 18 psi, that car goes on and on and on and coolant temperatures dont even come close to 230F. In corvette they are at 300 in 5 minutes. Corvette is the only american car I know that has forced induction which is why I am bringing it up.

I drive my cars extremely hard. Always on manual mode, revs constantly above 4k, at least 2-3 redlines everyday to and from work. A lot of diff work too. And for the love of god I cannot break these cars. Maybe I am lucky who knows.

I know that regular BMWs such as 335 with HPFP issues or 550 with the big N63 recall have been very badly publicized. But as I said, M cars have been nothing but fantastic.

The only thing you have to do in an M3 or an M5 is brake fluid flush. And maybe pads but only if you are consistently hitting the track (once a month). I have 3 track days on my M5 with 20k miles and my stock pads are still good for another 8000 miles. Whereas with a corvette for example you have to mix water with the coolant, use a different oil, change this and do that. Too much "track prep". Its comforting to drop my wife and kid at the mall, drive to a track, do my thing and pick them up with absolutely no prep, no overheat or any worry about something breaking.

Its really none of your business what dealer i work at. Im not having this conversation with you. You are a minority with low maintenance costs. That is not how it goes the vast majority of the time. They are over priced shitboxes. Period.

Please dont add tone to text that isnt there with that post. Im not being rude, just matter of fact.

 

[MCarsFan]

What does that sentence mean? Old news for the rest of us? so the FPC's are used in BMWs, too? I believe the 5.2 FPC is the largest displacement ever for a FPC. Just not following the context of your statement.

High revving, naturally aspirated v8. The point of FPC as per several Ford interviews I watched is you can make more power. Cool. Vodoo makes 101 hp per liter vs 104 from S65. Yeah sure vodoo's 101 is much better than say the typical push rod you see in Z51's LT1 (450 hp from a massive 6.2liter engine), but rest of the world have had these engines for a while...

I know FPC sounds great etc. again, to a person who drove mustangs all his life and never experienced 8300 rpm from a mustang, it sounds amazing, but it sounds nothing like a true FPC ferrari. It sounds a ton better than a boring standard v8 in gt or much better than pushrod v8 in corvette, but to my ears, that engine and the v8 in the bmw with the proper aftermarket exhaust dont sound so different.

Again, let me reiterate. I like the mustang. Hence I have been emailing tens of dealers for several weeks now and I joined this board to learn about this car. I am a fan. Please dont turn this into a fanboy flame war.

 

[MCarsFan]

Its really none of your business what dealer i work at. Im not having this conversation with you. You are a minority with low maintenance costs. That is not how it goes the vast majority of the time. They are over priced shitboxes. Period.

Please dont add tone to text that isnt there with that post. Im not being rude, just matter of fact.

I asked only because you clearly dont believe in the product you work with calling it a "shit box". If I were you, I would work for a brand that I believe in as I m sure your opinion on the product you work with will greatly reflect on the quality of the work you perform.

I am not the minority. Ms are much more reliable cars than their regular counterparts. This is a fact. The effective probablity of an M car failing is far less than its regular counter part.

Just curiois what version of ISTA you guys use?

 

[MCarsFan]

Thanks for the very helpful replies. I think you are swaying me towards the M3. and it's not just because I also love Arsenal

A little about me, I currently have a 2016 Cayman S. I went from a 2014 Cayman S to a 2015 C7 ZF1 (not Z51). I made that move last spring because I wanted a change and I was looking for some good low end torque times like I had in my youth with my ol 5.0 stangs. Well the C7 disappointed me on many fronts, including size, visibility and throttle response. So your comments about the e92 being superior to the gt350 on those fronts really hit home. The C7's throttle response is very artificial and laggy, owing to its torque management system. You really feel this with partial throttle inputs, if you really lay into it, it's not too bad in track mode, but at anything less than like 3/4 throttle, it is laggy, even in track mode. The laggy throttle means that the stellar low end torque is not all that accessible anyways. Honestly at partial throttle inputs the C7 didn't feel much quicker than my 981S (which has great throttle response) around town. This really disappointed me. I also didn't like not being to check my driver's side blind spot (you have to rely on mirrors only) and I found the large wide hood took away from feeling connected to the road.

So after 3 days with the C7 I tried to get my old Cayman S back (a Porsche dealer had bought it from me), but it was sold, so I was forced to order a new cayman, a 2016. Not sure why the e92 didn't come up on my radar at the time, but it didn't.

I still enjoy the cayman, but I am bored with it, since between the 2014 and 2016 I have had the same car for about 3 years and that's a long time for me. I also find lately I am moving more to a grand touring style of driving, I don't enjoy revving it out all the time and driving like a hooligan. More of a cruiser than a bruiser now.

Sounds like the e92 might be the better choice for me over a gt350. I am also contemplating an f type coupe manual or a vantage v8 2009 and up if anyone has any insights on those

This is some interesting feedback about C7. I honestly have never heard about the issue with throttle response. Are you sure your car was setup properly?

I drove a Z06 and to me it felt quite sharp. I would expect a base C7 to have even better response due to lack of supercharger.

Anyways, if there is anything E92 does well, its the throttle response. Its simply amazing. Rev matching in that car is a total blast. I would compare it to a 4.0 gt3rs, obviously not as nimble but just comparing engine response.

The only two issues I had with the E92 were the shifter and the seating position. I would definitely get a set of recaro seats as the stock seat is way too high and does not grab you like recaros. You also need a short shifter kit as the stock shifter is has way too long throws.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

High revving, naturally aspirated v8. The point of FPC as per several Ford interviews I watched is you can make more power. Cool. Vodoo makes 101 hp per liter vs 104 from S65. Yeah sure vodoo's 101 is much better than say the typical push rod you see in Z51's LT1 (450 hp from a massive 6.2liter engine), but rest of the world have had these engines for a while...

I know FPC sounds great etc. again, to a person who drove mustangs all his life and never experienced 8300 rpm from a mustang, it sounds amazing, but it sounds nothing like a true FPC ferrari. It sounds a ton better than a boring standard v8 in gt or much better than pushrod v8 in corvette, but to my ears, that engine and the v8 in the bmw with the proper aftermarket exhaust dont sound so different.

Again, let me reiterate. I like the mustang. Hence I have been emailing tens of dealers for several weeks now and I joined this board to learn about this car. I am a fan. Please dont turn this into a fanboy flame war.

I am not turning anything into a war. I wanted to understand the context of your statement. Thanks for replying.

I am a lover of the E93 M3. I almost bought a CPO 2013 E92 M3 (1300 miles) here in Atlanta before I special ordered my '15GTPP in May 2014. I actually tried to talk my wife into getting that M3 but she opted for an Infiniti QX56 instead.

 

[nastang87xx]

As a bmw master tech, im going to tell you this, without getting into it here because bmw fans cry when i tell how it is. You should run away from anything with a bmw badge. Despite what the bmw fans will tell you, they are incorrect about the real info about reliability.

Most people I know who have had BMW's got rid of them before 100,000 or after 150 and freshened it up.

 

[krt22]

Anyways, if there is anything E92 does well, its the throttle response. Its simply amazing. Rev matching in that car is a total blast. I would compare it to a 4.0 gt3rs, obviously not as nimble but just comparing engine response.
.

This is very true. The voodoo blips much faster than the coyote, but the e92 still takes the cake. Short shiffting a DCT car (with aftermarket exhaust) gives the full on race car sound

 

[MCarsFan]

Most people I know who have had BMW's got rid of them before 100,000 or after 150 and freshened it up.

Again, who is most people and what cars they owned? I would not touch a 550 or 750 beyond warranty but M5 or an M3 are both rock solid cars. You have to own one personally to understand the attention to the detail and engineering. BMW's M division is one of the best and they make (or used to make) significant changes to a car. In the case of E92 M3, 80% or more of the car is different than the standard 3 series.

I cannot speak about the new M3/M4 though as I owned mine only for 6 months. I think with the introduction of the F10 M5, BMW M changed its philosophy a lot. They are cutting costs and putting an M badge on every car. I would say the last true M car that I would buy used and keep it long time is E92 M3. M5 is "maybe" as it still carries some of the core design philosophy. A lot of bespoke parts and a lot of "overengineerined" parts. There are people who make 1000 hp on stock block and stock parts with just tune, downpipes, and meth. That tells you how strong these cars are. Try taking a base mustang or corvette and without changing the engine's core components, increase the horse power by 90-100% and see what happens.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Again, who is most people and what cars they owned? I would not touch a 550 or 750 beyond warranty but M5 or an M3 are both rock solid cars. You have to own one personally to understand the attention to the detail and engineering. BMW's M division is one of the best and they make (or used to make) significant changes to a car. In the case of E92 M3, 80% or more of the car is different than the standard 3 series.

I cannot speak about the new M3/M4 though as I owned mine only for 6 months. I think with the introduction of the F10 M5, BMW M changed its philosophy a lot. They are cutting costs and putting an M badge on every car. I would say the last true M car that I would buy used and keep it long time is E92 M3. M5 is "maybe" as it still carries some of the core design philosophy. A lot of bespoke parts and a lot of "overengineerined" parts. There are people who make 1000 hp on stock block and stock parts with just tune, downpipes, and meth. That tells you how strong these cars are. Try taking a base mustang or corvette and without changing the engine's core components, increase the horse power by 90-100% and see what happens.

These new S550's are making big power on the stock block and internals. Reliably 700-750RWHP under FI (SC or Turbo). The hellion car made over 900RWHP and has for a good while. A bone stock engine.

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