Gt vs 350

[Braski]

I've owned both a 17 GTPP and 17 GT350. Had the GTPP for a year and a half, the GT350 for just under a year now. Neither are DD's, they sit in the garage except for warm sunny days.

Ordinarily I'd steer people towards the GT350. It's amazing. I may never get rid of it.

BUT.

I don't think it would make a good DD for a few reasons.

#1, even at the stock ride height, the front splitter tries to scrape on everything. To the point that you always have a little anxiety about running over stuff in the road and whether you can make it in and out of certain parking lots.

#2, in the GT I felt like I could rip on her early and more often. The GT350 has an external oil cooler and that's nice and all for a hot day when you're really beating on it, but on cool days it takes foooorever for the engine to get up to temp. (Talking the min oil temp of 190°F to unlock 8250rpm redline.) It may take ten miles of driving to get the engine warm, or on a cold day it may not hit operating temp at all. The cold oil pressure at idle in the 350 is like 100psi, and quite a few of the cars (including mine) exhibit some piston slap from the forged pistons and the sloppy tolerances. I'm just not comfortable putting a lot of load on the engine when it isn't fully warm.

#3, most of the GT350's out there have Recaros and they're just not a good DD seat. I love mine, but with as little as I drive it the side bolstering is exhibiting some wear and I'm very careful getting in and out. I had the cloth Recaros in my GTPP and they didn't show any wear at all with way more miles and use on them. The alcantara doesn't stand up very well.

ETA one more thing: #4: speaking of alcantara, I'm always very conscious about what's on my hands before I get in the car. I make an effort to wash them always. The alcantara wrap on the wheel will soak up your skin oil and get nasty after a while. I never worried about this in the GT.

Thanks for the detailed post. The piston slap and engine failures are scarring me a bit but I could easily live with everything else. I currently DD my current car as long as it's not snowing, I also might let her sit if she's all shined up and raining.

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[Braski]

Question for all you gt 350 owners, how bad is the wheel hop? My gt pp was like a bucking bronco before all the bmr mods. I really dont wan't to have to deal with that again?

 

[jake_zx2]

Thanks for the detailed post. The piston slap and engine failures are scarring me a bit but I could easily live with everything else. I currently DD my current car as long as it's not snowing, I also might let her sit if she's all shined up and raining.

Go check out the recent thread about "piston slap"... Ford has determined that the ticking noise that must unexperienced people are diagnosing as "piston slap" is just normal operation and not in any way detrimental to the operation of the engine

 

[phil justso Benton]

Hey Guys, so I am looking to buy a new mustang as my daily driver, and I'm caught up between the 350 and the GT. so in my situation I have found a new GT 350 listed within 3k of a GT pp1 that is fully loaded, magnaride, Recaros, electronics.... the works. so my thought when looking at the two cars is the GT has all this fancy tech like the gauges and heated steering, sound system ectc, as well as premium interior, yet the 350 is more likely to give the exhilarating ride I want.

Unfortunately living on Long Island, the local dealerships wont let me test drive a 350, but I have managed to get behind the wheel of a 10 speed, and I got to say no matter the drive mode it shifted before I felt any torque, it was very underwhelming especially compared to an SS I also tested. This has me hesitant about the GT, even though the one I am now considering is a manual. I actually manage to daily drive an R6 out here, despite the cold, and I love the high rev, high end torque, so I know that what ill get with the 350 atleast, and the interior isn't so bad when your actually sitting in one, but knowing I am buying a "brand new car" that is essentially 5 years old and it is a bit disheartening, and as I'll be caught in traffic a decent amount those lacking comforts will probably be missed.

So essentially, I'm wondering if my experience with the 10spd is what I should expect from a manual GT, and if it can match the experience I get with my motorcycle, or do you guys think the 350's engine outweighs its technology/comfort short comings.

I'm surrounded by GM fans over here unfortunately so I definitely appreciate some mustang fan input!

Hi In my opinion there is no contest the gt350 is completely in another league brakes chassis steering and engine so good on the Gt350
i have both cars by the way an 18 gt 10 speed auto and an 18 gt 350 over here in blighty i would rather have a 350 than my previous 2016 Porsche targa gen 2
it has a soul
regards Phil

 

[JiminVirginia]

I'll be that guy. I DD a car that's as stiff as a GT350R, and similarly loud. It's more than fine, and in fact makes the commute more than just a boring 20 min commute. FYI you can have a firm car that isn't harsh. Everyone has their own preferences, and I get the people who want soft, cushy, quiet all the time. To them I say: don't buy a Mustang. The GT is a shell of itself with the base, super soft, clumsy and wobbly suspension and extremely muted exhaust note (though this is improved for 2018). It is unbelievable how much better and more fun it is to drive when done right...even in traffic. Every time I'm away for a week with a bland rental car, getting to drive mine again is like a treat, and I appreciate it all over again.

Me, too, sort of. Last fall I sold a 2015 GTPremiumPP that was my daily driver and bought a 2018 GT350. I find the car is a ton of fun, pretty much everywhere, including going to work and back. It's just fine in traffic.

That said, I didn't want to subject the GT350 to winters here in Northern Virginia, and I was mindful of the gas mileage. So I bought a 2018 Fiesta ST, which turns out to be a lot of fun, too, in its own way, and it gets 29.5 MPG.

Best of both worlds, far as I'm concerned.

 

[Dfeeds]

Go check out the recent thread about "piston slap"... Ford has determined that the ticking noise that must unexperienced people are diagnosing as "piston slap" is just normal operation and not in any way detrimental to the operation of the engine

No. The rattle that happens around 2k rpms on the 2018/2019 MY GTs is being associated with piston slap. It sounds nothing like the bbq tick. True, many are mixing the two up, but the aforementioned rattle is still a thing and what people are associating the scored cylinder walls with.

 

[nastang87xx]

Firing order is sort of related to why H-pipes and X-pipes in crossplane v8 engines can sound so different.

The Voodoo engine is rather unconventional even for a FPC engine - the crank throws are 0 - 180 - 0 - 180 rather than the FPC-conventional 0 - 180 - 180 - 0 arrangement. And the OE exhaust primaries are not merged 4 into 1 but in a 3 into 1 with the last primary merging further downstream. IIRC, this was partly driven to avoid sounding too Euro-exotic and turn off too many US enthusiasts who still want to hear some low-frequency rumble.


Norm

That was forum bro-science. That particular firing order actually was used because it gave a better torque spread that was more attributable to a Mustang and its application. As a result, it ended up sounding the way it did. The unequal length headers exasperates this.

 

[Spart]

Go check out the recent thread about "piston slap"... Ford has determined that the ticking noise that must unexperienced people are diagnosing as "piston slap" is just normal operation and not in any way detrimental to the operation of the engine

There's a TSB or whatever about the piston slap in the GT350. It's quite common. I know what it sounds like, I know what the BBQ igniter tick sounds like, and I know what the typewriter tick sounds like. The Voodoo isn't known for exhibiting the last two for whatever reason.

The piston slap doesn't bother me, I stay out of the gas until it's warm by which time that sound has completely gone away.

 

[jake_zx2]

No. The rattle that happens around 2k rpms on the 2018/2019 MY GTs is being associated with piston slap. It sounds nothing like the bbq tick. True, many are mixing the two up, but the aforementioned rattle is still a thing and what people are associating the scored cylinder walls with.

Correction; WAS being associated. The "Rattle" is highly unlikely to be piston slap, more likely to be just the DI pump doing it's work. Piston slap is a more consistent sound than that "rattle". My car has the tick and the rattle, and has no piston slap, no metal shavings in the oil, and no cylinder wall scoring. Move to the right thread if you want to talk about ticking, and stop freaking out over nothing.

Like Start said, the GT350 has been associated with a tick of its own. But no one threw a fit when Ford said that was a design characteristic of the engine, did they?

 

[Norm Peterson]

That was forum bro-science. That particular firing order actually was used because it gave a better torque spread that was more attributable to a Mustang and its application. As a result, it ended up sounding the way it did. The unequal length headers exasperates this.

The firing order was a function of crankshaft configuration, and why Ford chose the 0-180-0-180 is independent of any desired resulting sound. I'm not doubting your better torque spread reasoning, but that's not what forced the character of the sound to be what it is.

The firing order still always alternates between the banks. Has to with a FPC. Yes, you can change the order in which the cylinders in each bank fire, but it's what gets done with the exhaust pipe merging that changes the sound. A true 4 into 1 header does make the GT350 sound a lot different (there used to be a video) . . . dare I say more "Ferrari-ish"?


Norm

 

[Dfeeds]

Correction; WAS being associated. The "Rattle" is highly unlikely to be piston slap, more likely to be just the DI pump doing it's work. Piston slap is a more consistent sound than that "rattle". My car has the tick and the rattle, and has no piston slap, no metal shavings in the oil, and no cylinder wall scoring. Move to the right thread if you want to talk about ticking, and stop freaking out over nothing.

Like Start said, the GT350 has been associated with a tick of its own. But no one threw a fit when Ford said that was a design characteristic of the engine, did they?

Um, what? As I said, the rattle IS NOT the same as the bbq tick. The bulletin Ford posted about the GT is about the bbq tick. The rattle is very consistent, and doesn't fluctuate in rhythm like the bbq tick. The gt350 also has the same rattle which, as you even managed to comprehend, Ford made a tsb about saying it's piston slap. Now why didn't people freak out? Because the gt350 uses forged aluminum pistons. Guess what doesn't? The GT. It's why there's concern. The hypereutectic pistons have a much lower thermal coefficient than forged aluminum, which are easy to manage with the old iron sleeves. The new PTWA liners have a completely different thermal coefficient than the iron sleeves, leading a loose spec'd piston very likely to slap.

Now, because you like the word (I'll fix it, though), the "INexperienced" may not realize that piston slap doesn't always cause damage. A piston tightening up too much could, though, or improper lubrication. Which leads me to this: who said I was freaking out? I'll wait. I'm just tired of people like you, who clearly have no idea what they're talking about, shoving their nose into things and trying to act all high and mighty by demeaning anyone who expresses an ounce of concern. OP expressed concern, which means this has every right to be in this topic. Your opinion and experience with your car doesn't mean every replaced engine is a fabricated lie to spread fear.

Just a little recap because that might be too many words. Bbq and the 2k rattle are not the same. Ford bulletin addresses bbq tick. Bulletin on gt350 addresses a 2k, rattle like sound, that is very similar to the rattle the new GT experiences. Some associated damage to cylinder walls has led many to surmise that the rattle is piston slap. Rattle doesn't you'll have damage.

Do we have that settled? Okay, good.

 

[TexasRebel]

The firing order was a function of crankshaft configuration, and why Ford chose the 0-180-0-180 is independent of any desired resulting sound. I'm not doubting your better torque spread reasoning, but that's not what forced the character of the sound to be what it is.

The firing order still always alternates between the banks. Has to with a FPC. Yes, you can change the order in which the cylinders in each bank fire, but it's what gets done with the exhaust pipe merging that changes the sound. A true 4 into 1 header does make the GT350 sound a lot different (there used to be a video) . . . dare I say more "Ferrari-ish"?


Norm

A flat-plane V8 is essentially two I4s stuck together around the axis of the main journals.

Most I4s have the UDDU configuration for secondary harmonics (rocking) consideration. It's like having a pair of mirror imaged two cylinders and the rocking motion mostly cancels out without huge counterweights. The only thing left unbalanced is a horizontal imbalance imparted by the rods swinging in different planes (which is parallel to the opposite bank in a V8)

It's possible that Ford considered they would have to counterbalance the rocking no matter what in a higher revving V8.

The UDDU scheme also makes the firing order either 1-2-4-3 or 1-3-4-2... thus a V8 would be 1-.-2-.-4-.-3-. or 1-.-3-.-4-.-2-. (Ford still kills me by not numbering the cylinders from front to back) and ultimately:
1-5-2-6-4-8-3-7
1-5-2-7-4-8-3-6
1-8-2-7-4-5-3-6
1-8-2-6-4-5-3-7
1-5-3-6-4-8-2-7
1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6
1-8-3-7-4-5-2-6
1-8-3-6-4-5-2-7

The UDUD scheme alters the I4 to 1-2-3-4 or 1-4-3-2 which makes the V8 possibilities:
1-5-2-6-3-7-4-8
1-5-2-8-3-7-4-6
1-7-2-8-3-5-4-6
1-7-2-6-3-5-4-8
1-5-4-6-3-7-2-8
1-5-4-8-3-7-2-6
1-7-4-8-3-5-2-6
1-7-4-6-3-5-2-8

the 2(3 into 1) into 1 setup may dictate the firing order a little bit, but I suspect they looked for a firing order that evened out exhaust flow while minimizing crankshaft stresses.

 

[jake_zx2]

Bbq and the 2k rattle are not the same. Ford bulletin addresses bbq tick.

Wow, what a pretentious little twat you are

Please show me where, exactly, I said that "the rattle" and "bbq tick" are the same thing? Now that we got your terrible reading comprehension out of the way, we can discuss the fact that you DO NOT know better than Ford.
1. If the "2k RPM rattle" was consistent like you say it is, then it wouldn't be a "2k RPM" rattle, now would it
2. There has been no proven cause of the 2k RPM rattle in the GT yet, nor has there been any proof that it is correlated with any sort of damage
3. Hey know it all, bet you don't know this one; the GT350 "rattle" that you're referring to... get this... only occurs "during cold operation at light loads and speeds from Idle- 3000 RPM." quite a bit fucking different from the GT's rattle, which only occurs at 2000RPM and is not dependent upon engine temperature, huh? I can't wait to hear you say that Ford is wrong on their assessment of the GT350's rattle
4. If you're so confident in your view, where's your evidence? Do you have record of EVERY engine that was replaced by Ford and the notes of the resulting engineers exploring the damage afterward? No? Oh, who would've guessed, you're just talking out your ass!

Bottom line is, if the "2k RPM" rattle was REALLY piston slap, then my engine would have been showing SOME SORT of damage by now, as I've had it since I bought the car. Now you can stop being a self-righteous prick and move along to a thread that actually has to do with the tick. Here, it should be of little concern, as the REAL issue that had the EXPERIENCED members concerned was the BBQ tick, not the rattle of the DI pump

 

[Dfeeds]

Wow, what a pretentious little twat you are

Please show me where, exactly, I said that "the rattle" and "bbq tick" are the same thing? Now that we got your terrible reading comprehension out of the way, we can discuss the fact that you DO NOT know better than Ford.
1. If the "2k RPM rattle" was consistent like you say it is, then it wouldn't be a "2k RPM" rattle, now would it
2. There has been no proven cause of the 2k RPM rattle in the GT yet, nor has there been any proof that it is correlated with any sort of damage
3. Hey know it all, bet you don't know this one; the GT350 "rattle" that you're referring to... get this... only occurs "during cold operation at light loads and speeds from Idle- 3000 RPM." quite a bit fucking different from the GT's rattle, which only occurs at 2000RPM and is not dependent upon engine temperature, huh? I can't wait to hear you say that Ford is wrong on their assessment of the GT350's rattle
4. If you're so confident in your view, where's your evidence? Do you have record of EVERY engine that was replaced by Ford and the notes of the resulting engineers exploring the damage afterward? No? Oh, who would've guessed, you're just talking out your ass!

Bottom line is, if the "2k RPM" rattle was REALLY piston slap, then my engine would have been showing SOME SORT of damage by now, as I've had it since I bought the car. Now you can stop being a self-righteous prick and move along to a thread that actually has to do with the tick. Here, it should be of little concern, as the REAL issue that had the EXPERIENCED members concerned was the BBQ tick, not the rattle of the DI pump

Saying the rattle isn't consistent. How much more consistent do you want? This engine can recreate the sound, without fail, by anyone who hears it. That's consistent. The sound also is rhytmic and steady, which is consistent. The only sound that isn't consistent is the bbq tick. Also, here, this one will be a ride so keep that thick helmet of yours on. In your words: "Ford has determined that the ticking noise that must unexperienced people are diagnosing as "piston slap" is just normal operation and not in any way detrimental to the operation of the engine." Right here, champ, you lope the two together. An individual mentions piston slap and engine failures which has been linked to the rattle, and you point said individual towards Ford's bulletin addressing the bbq/typewriter tick.

Sigh... your ignorance keeps shining brightly. Not every engine rattles at all temps. This has been discussed plenty of times. I have first hand proof of this, too. My old engine, which was replaced due to damage to the camshafts, always rattled. The new longblock only rattles when warm. The new longblock also lacks all of the sound deadening around rhe DI pump that comes from the factory. It's a noisy little thing, especially at idle, but it doesn't sound like the rattle. The gt350 tsb has been posted numerous times in the 5.0 issues section because it fits the bill almost perfectly, only to have other members say the GT uses hypereutectic pistons and it doesn't apply. Not "quite a bit fucking different."

I'll reiterate this again. PISTON SLAP DOES NOT, AND USUALLY DOES NOT, CAUSE DAMAGE. One more time. DOES. NOT. CAUSE. DAMAGE. Your "bottom line" means shit, except to exemplify your stupidity. I'm just going to start calling you monkey. You remind me of the same idiots who read an article on ABC news and say the human eye can't perceive beyond 30 fps.

And NO, a hundred times over, NO. The bbq tick was NOT the biggest cause for concern. The EXPERIENCED members have made this a point time and time again that the bbq tick has NO proof of causing failure, the rattle has. Do you mean to tell me that YOU know more than the dealer's who have opened these engines apart, saw the damage, talked to Ford, and have said the damage was caused by excessive piston slap? Your hypocrisy is infuriating. I also never once said my opinion is fact, so nice try. You, on the other hand, seem so confident that this is DI pump related. Non DI cars have made the same noise. Explain that one, monkey. I've always been a proponent of the argument that the rattle isn't always a sure sign of engine damage/failure, because I'm convinced every 2018/2019 has it. I'm not, however, so dense at to think that it's the DI pump, or that other member's have nothing to worry about. I don't care about the damn tick, but the post quoted mentioned the rattle, so I'll keep my self righteous ass planted right here to help prevent the spread of misinformation.

EDIT: OP mentions the tick, the original person quoted mentions piston slap; so I had that wrong. Come to think of it, has OP posted since page 1?

 

[Anthony 05 GT]

Damn guys, take a breath.

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